Comments on: No, Hitler Wasn’t a Pantheist https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Tue, 10 Jun 2025 15:34:36 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.1 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40815 Tue, 10 Jun 2025 15:34:36 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40815 In reply to Latifa.

There is an entire field of study and thousands of books and articles on the diverse views of WW2 Nazis. I link to some examples in this article. I discuss a prominent example in Hitler’s Table Talk: The Definitive Account. And there are countless more. Each of your questions is different and would entail researching hundreds of studies.

There are no polls because one common theme across all research is that Nazis routinely lied about everything so it is a challenge to ascertain what is even true, and most Nazis did not get “interviewed” about such minute questions as you ask, so we can only judge by leadership policy. But once scholars get at the truth, they find, generally, that extremely few Nazis were atheists or even Neopagans (contrary to legend, you have to try hard to find them, and they are dwarfed in count by the the thousands of leadership and millions of line Nazis). Most were Christians of some stripe or other (most commonly Positive Christians). And the Nazi ideology and party platform was built on that framework. The books I just referenced all cover this aspect of it.

As far as liberty, there is no evidence Bormann had to hide his atheism, for example, because he espoused the Nazi platform and found ways to justify it on his atheist POV. Otherwise, atheists were pegged as Bolsheviks and thus agents of the Jews. So it wasn’t “atheism” per se that was perceived as a threat by the Nazis, but Judeo-Marxism, and “atheism” could send up a red flag that one was a Judeo-Marxist; so atheists, to be “out,” had to virtue-signal their opposition to Judeo-Marxism.

Atheists might still have faced bias in the ranks, as the worry would always be that they were crypto-Judeo-Marxists. But when we look at the Nazis who spoke on the subject in private, they tend to track (not always but most often) toward Positive Christian views (Hitler most of all) and side-eyed atheists—as Hitler did, yet Hitler elevated Bormann to high positions of trust anyway, so he was clearly capable of trusting atheists, and there is no evidence of anyone protesting this.

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By: Latifa https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40800 Wed, 04 Jun 2025 18:20:07 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40800 Do we have statistics about the religious affiliation of Nazis?

How much did atheists like Martin Bormann agree with Hitler? Did they support the invasion of the ussr or underestimate the power of the usa in the same way?

Were nazi atheists even allowed to publicly speak about their atheism?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40781 Mon, 02 Jun 2025 17:18:03 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40781 In reply to Latifa.

What claims? And why do they matter?

No one doubts some Nazis were atheists (famous example: Martin Bormann).

You can’t argue, “There was an occasional atheist in the Nazi party, therefore Nazism is an atheist movement.” So it doesn’t matter if 1% of line Nazis were atheists. That doesn’t support any argument about the other 99%, or the party, or its platform, or its origins, or its goals, or its principal drivers.

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By: Latifa https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40776 Fri, 30 May 2025 20:33:59 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40776 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Because they were nazis and there are claims around that they were atheists

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40775 Fri, 30 May 2025 19:12:32 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40775 In reply to Latifa.

Why?

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By: Latifa https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40774 Fri, 30 May 2025 18:52:38 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40774 Can you please also debunk the argument that these were atheists?

Adolf Eichmann

Albert Speer

Julius Streicher

Joseph Goebbels

Alfred Rosenberg

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40677 Wed, 14 May 2025 21:26:10 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40677 In reply to storm.

These are irrelevant points.

Italy collapsed immediately upon invasion. Russia repelled the entire Nazi regime on its lone front and took half of Germany. It does not matter who helped who. One of those reflects a loser, the other a winner.

That’s why no one cares about Mussolini.

Meanwhile, Hitler wasn’t an atheist, so he’s irrelevant to the comparison.

As for how Christianity caused Antisemitism and the Holocaust, if you are confused about that, you have a lot of reading to do to catch up.

If you really care (I suspect you don’t, as your behavior here has been repeatedly disingenuous), here is a start-with reading list:

Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945

Susannah Heschel, The Aryan Jesus: Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany

James Carroll, Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews, A History

And go from there.

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By: storm https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40668 Tue, 13 May 2025 16:18:07 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40668 Hitler was taken down after the US and UK joined the war, not by Stalin on his own, Stalin infact lost many Russian lives to Hitler. The Black Book of Communism blames the entire USSR on 20 million deaths while blaming Hitler for 25 million outright murder(excludes European WW2), and that’s the book biased against communism!

The West generaly considers Hitler worse than Stalin because Hitler’s evil disgusts more successfuly on a gut level. The human face of the Holocaust is Anne Frank, an innocent little girl hunted down and exterminated because of dangerous racist pseudoscience. The human face of the Gulag is Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, a cranky old guy in a wild beard who survived.

Hitler also makes a much better morality tale: By appealing to people’s fears and hatreds, he whipped the mob into a frenzy and became leader of a free democracy, which he quickly twisted to his own desires. While trying to conquer the world, he committed unparaleled atrocities. Finaly, Hitler overreached and was taken down by the wrath of a unified world in a final apocalyptic fury. It’s a more satisfying narrative that people enjoy teling over and over again.

Stalin, however, is more typical of tyrants throughout history. He lurked in the shadows, manipulated his way to the head of a preexisting autocracy, consolidated power brutaly, and expanded his empire by cleverly playing both sides of the fence. At a fine old age, he died in bed, undefeated, unpunished, mourned by a loving nation.

if it was a “a weird Nazi Christian cult that was vehemently anti-Catholic” then can we really blame Christianity on the holocaust? doesn’t this mean that the nazis practiced a Christianity that was not recognizably similar to the Christianity practiced all around the world and across time? that It was not close to some type of Christianity that people believe today and more of a weird heresy that we can hardly blame on Jesus, Paul, Augustine, etc?

how was positive Christianity vehemently anti-catholic? this is news to me! what do you mean when you say Hitler didn’t really believe?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40595 Wed, 07 May 2025 16:09:11 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40595 In reply to storm.

Stalin kicked Hitler’s ass. Not a loser. So people “care” about his being an atheist. That’s why Christians will shout “Stalin” and not “Mussolini” when trying to cherry pick an evil atheist. That’s the distinction I’m talking about. (Of course Stalin’s atheism had little to do with his being evil, but that’s a separate discussion.)

And yes, Eurofascism was Christian-backed (not just by Catholics, but yes, the Catholics).

And regardless of what Mussolini “said,” he was in practical reality an ally of the Vatican. But not because of any beliefs, I suspect. He was just a psychopath building whatever alliances suited him. Like Donald Trump, I doubt Mussolini had anything resembling “beliefs” at a metaphysical level, not even in “atheism.”

In terms of official “status” Mussolini was always a Catholic since birth (he did not “convert,” though I hear he was rebaptized and had his kids baptized, I’ve never seen sources for those claims, and in any event, they don’t mean conversion: he was baptized as an infant and always publicly Catholic). Just like Hitler. But somewhat like Hitler, he didn’t really “believe” in it (and was never excommunicated either). Hitler, however, was a “true believer” in Positive Christianity (a weird Nazi Christian cult that was vehemently anti-Catholic), but secretly. Publicly he was a “good Catholic.” I doubt Mussolini had anything like such a conviction. Like I said, I think he was more like Trump, with no intellectual beliefs at all, just psychopathic surface thoughts that shift with the wind.

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By: storm https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11792#comment-40588 Wed, 07 May 2025 09:37:11 +0000 http://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=11792#comment-40588 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Isn’t everyone a loser compared to Hitler? He started WW2 which was the bloodiest war and the costliest war, who can possibly compare to that?

As I understand it, Mussolini was an atheist in his youth but has converted to Roman Catholicism in adulthood.

Wasn’t the fascist movement a right wing Catholic movement?

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