Comments on: Laguna Beach Pubmeet Moved to a Thursday https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Wed, 03 Jun 2026 00:50:12 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.4 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25789 Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:30:05 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25789 In reply to Sam Hoff.

After the resurrection. Which adoption established Jesus in even higher status than he held before. Hence he became God’s heir (not merely his agent), and thus “the firstborn of many brethren.”

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By: Sam Hoff https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25788 Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:28:08 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25788 In reply to Sam Hoff.

When did the adoption by God occur?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25785 Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:07:42 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25785 In reply to Sam Hoff.

Where does Paul say Jesus only acquired that specific power after he died? You seem to be confused. The Philippians creed says Jesus gave up that power to effect the atonement sacrifice, and then God exalted him back to his previous, and indeed higher, status, in result. This is also clear in 1 Cor. 15, where Jesus is granted greater powers than previously for his sacrifice, which powers now permitted him to defeat the Devil, which power he had not had previously, explaining the evils of all human history. By contrast, Paul says Jesus’s resurrection is now “the firstfruits” of the end-times resurrection, which cannot mean he was resurrected thousands of years ago. It can only mean he was resurrected recently, and that in fact that being the case was proof the end was nigh.

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By: Sam Hoff https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25777 Mon, 12 Mar 2018 14:05:37 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25777 In reply to Richard Carrier.

The crucifixion must occur before creation.

Paul viewed Jesus as a demiurge that created the world on God’s behalf.

Jesus only obtained that power after he died and was adopted by God.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25774 Sun, 11 Mar 2018 22:43:47 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25774 In reply to Sam Hoff.

I doubt it. He speaks as though it was a later-age event, overthrowing Satan’s thrall only recently. The cosmic symmetry of it requires it to have just happened to overthrow Satan’s long reign. Similarly, Paul says Jesus was the firstfruits of the general resurrection, meaning he regarded Jesus’ sacrifice as beginning the imminent end of the world. He cannot have said that of an event that predated even Creation.

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By: Sam Hoff https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25773 Sun, 11 Mar 2018 22:38:09 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25773 Did Paul view the crucifixion of Jesus occuring before the creation of the world?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25771 Sun, 11 Mar 2018 20:51:07 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25771 In reply to JonnyMadFox.

It’s permanently available for free: e.g. here.

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By: JonnyMadFox https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13847#comment-25761 Fri, 09 Mar 2018 17:24:37 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=13847#comment-25761 Hi. In your book “proving history..” you recommend Douglas Hunter Political and Military Applications of Bayesian Analysis for learning about about how apply this to history. But the problem is, this book doesn’t really exist since it’s not being printed anymore.
Any alternative?

Greets and thx

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