Comments on: Then He Appeared to Over Five Hundred Brethren at Once! https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Sun, 23 Aug 2026 17:23:19 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-45077 Sun, 23 Aug 2026 17:23:19 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-45077 In reply to Aryan.

Trying to defend stuff like this is stupid and only makes you look gullible and desperate. Just FYI.

But here are the things you should have asked yourself already:

Why did you change what the story was?

That’s not what was described as happening. No one was staring at the sun in an open sky. It was after a rain and thus cloudy with elevated mist and people were noticing (or by mass hysteria claiming) visual effects around the sun that do not require staring at it or even seeing it clearly at all. And the crowd stayed there ten minutes. No single person stared at the sun at all, much less a whole ten minutes.

The descriptions recorded that matched the different observation points are the ones that match common solar phenomena projected through moving mist. So we know what really happened. It would not harm the eyes to see this. And it would require no magic to produce it. And no virgin was seen in it. Just spectral and reflective color shifts through mist.

The more ridiculous reports of what was seen don’t match the others that did match each other, so we know what happened there, too. People delude, exaggerate, confabulate, and lie. If they were seeing what they claim, everyone would have. But they didn’t. Which means what they saw happened only in their mind (or not at all). What happened is what was corroborated. Which lacks nothing not already a known meteorological and optical phenomenon.

You should already know all of this.

So you need to ask yourself: why didn’t you?

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By: Aryan https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-45062 Sat, 22 Aug 2026 22:52:04 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-45062 How does your naturalistic framework explain these three physical data points from Ethan Muse’s case on Fatima?

Zero Eye Damage: Staring at a midday sun for 10 minutes guarantees widespread solar retinopathy. If 70,000 people were just staring at the sun, why are there zero medical records of eye injuries in Portugal after the event?

Distant Witnesses: Unsuspecting people 11 miles away saw the landscape change colors. Since they were completely isolated from the main crowd, how does a mass suggestion model explain these synchronized, distant visions?

No Blinding Glare: Witnesses reported the sun safely became a “silver disc” before they stared. If the blinding glare vanished first, how could retinal burn trigger the optical illusion?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-40741 Tue, 27 May 2025 15:47:16 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-40741 In reply to Herbert Wraczlavski.

The more plausible interpretation is that Paul’s reference to “the Twelve” pertains to the Twelve Tribes

I am missing the context here. More plausible than what? [Update: This was in response to the comment above by Miller.]

Because no other interpretation has been offered here. Pretty much everyone agrees with you on that. It matches practice at Qumran, who also had a council of twelve running things in anticipation of the resurrection of twelve tribes.

Perhaps you mean 1 Cor 15 means Jesus “appeared to the tribes” but then it would say that, and also, it can’t have meant that, because 1 Cor 15 is describing the limited circle of those having authority to preach (see Gal 1), so in no way can he have meant mass appearances to millions of people. Likewise, he only says one of the listed appearances was en masse, the brethren (who, by receiving a mass vision, are not identified as apostles: they did not receive a personal vision appointing them to authority). The twelve therefore can only mean individual persons (not even an appearance to twelve “all at once” as Paul only says that of the non-apostolic brethren), and thus he means twelve individual persons, thus something like the Qumran council.

The Gospels’ reinterpretation of “the Twelve” as “twelve apostles” represents a later development

Incorrect. That the twelve were apostles is established in Paul, because 1 Cor 15 and 9 and Gal 1 show that that was the definition of an apostle (receiving a personal vision of Jesus appointing you; as opposed to a mass sighting, which did not confer apostolic rank), and the word means “one sent,” i.e., “missionary,” and the twelve were that (as Paul attests repeatedly). Likewise, when Paul lists ranks in the church, apostles are at the top (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 4:9). So there was no other rank the twelve could be (as confirmed in 1 Corinthians 9:5).

It’s possible you are confusing “apostle” (one who received a vision) with “disciple” (a student of a living teacher). Paul never mentions disciples, even when he mentions ranks in the church (neither does Hebrews or 1 Clement or 1 Peter, BTW), so that concept definitely was invented later. As might also have been most of their names.

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By: Herbert Wraczlavski https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-40740 Tue, 27 May 2025 13:11:48 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-40740 The more plausible interpretation is that Paul’s reference to “the Twelve” pertains to the Twelve Tribes of Israel, as this was the established meaning in contemporary discourse.

Similarly, James explicitly addresses the Twelve Tribes in full, yet makes no mention of the apostles whatsoever. This confirms communication between early Christian authors and the Twelve Tribes but does not establish the existence of the Twelve Apostles.

The Gospels’ reinterpretation of “the Twelve” as “twelve apostles” represents a later development, and Paul himself neither establishes such an identification nor introduces an alternative meaning. Instead, he relies on existing knowledge—knowledge that, in this case, is the only one proven to exist at that time and place: the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

[Update: This is in response to the comment above by Miller—Ed.]

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-40408 Sun, 20 Apr 2025 22:27:08 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-40408 In reply to Louis.

Because those are all singular.

Paul makes clear only this event was a mass appearance (only this occurred “all at once,” meaning all the rest are private, and thus separate, appearances, not group experiences). That tells us two things: (1) it was different and (2) it was more likely (as data shows that kind of thing is what most usually) caused by some ambiguous external stimulus.

It is also possible this was a charismatically anchored ecstasy, i.e. no external stimulus existed, but whoever was charismatically leading the ecstasy told or primed them to see something, which in their altered state their brains all duly provided (that is also among the well-documented phenomena we have in the psychological science of religious experience). I discuss this possibility and the science (as well as the other possibilities) in OHJ, Ch. 4, Element 15.

But the other experiences (scattered, fleeting, entirely individual and private) are by that data most likely internal (as Paul reports, Jesus was revealed “in him” not as an external stimulus, contra Acts, although Paul could have read an external event as an internal one, so we can’t rule that out, it’s just less frequently the cause of a string of isolated and fleeting visions). And the language is indistinct as to whether waking visions or dreams are meant (either or both can be the case, as ancients made no particular distinction when believing a God appeared to them: if did not matter whether it was in their sleep or not).

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By: Louis https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-40401 Sun, 20 Apr 2025 07:57:04 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-40401 If you’re gonna say that the appearance to the 500 was likely a misinterpretation of a physical event why assume that the another appearances consists of visions and not physical events or hallucinations as well?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-37044 Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:59:23 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-37044 In reply to Rob.

I’m not sure what theory you are advancing. Paul had no long-term goals, because he thought the world would be melted in his lifetime. He was certainly subverting imperial values, but not to destroy the Empire, but to sit it out with a “purer” kingdom within it created by Christian action until Rome was literally vaporized by God.

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By: Rob https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-37040 Thu, 11 Jan 2024 11:19:14 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-37040 Paul of Tarsus created Christianity to destroy paganism and Rome, he knew that he could not defeat Rome through military conquest and he created this religion to turn the Palestinian, Egyptian, Greek, Levantine, etc. people against Rome by subverting its values. and took advantage of his Roman citizenship to spread this sect throughout the Empire, there is strong evidence of all this if the historical context of his time is analyzed, let us also think that he was a fierce persecutor of Christians and I highly suspect that precisely this revelation had it when all the armed revolts of the Jews failed.

I recommend this video by David Skrbina where he explains this theory in detail.
https://youtu.be/XMqvP2m1Dqs?si=gwlWNodFnVhKRmTm

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By: Mario Marrufo https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-37034 Tue, 09 Jan 2024 13:18:37 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-37034 In reply to Mario Marrufo.

I can also confirm that, at least in that church, the type of glossalalia depicted in Acts happened not a single time! Definitely never any fire or appearance thereof! And definitely never any real languages! Though there were certainly anecdotal accounts of speech in tongues where real languages were spoken! But somewhere else! Argumentum ad trust me bro! Hic Rhodus Hic salta!

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By: Mario Marrufo https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/14255#comment-37033 Tue, 09 Jan 2024 02:05:52 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=14255#comment-37033 Re: glossalalia: Yes! I can confirm that, in the 90s, I went to a church where we, at different times, both all babbled out loud in tongues all at the same time (which Paul didn’t seem to be a fan of) AND did the thing Paul did recommend, where one person babbles out loud in tongues and then another person “translates” the “prophecy”! LMAO!

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