Comments on: Was Jesus-Is-Michael an Early Christian Mystery Teaching? https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Thu, 21 May 2026 15:54:11 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.4 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-44131 Thu, 21 May 2026 15:54:11 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-44131 In reply to David Booker.

That’s covered in Hannah (he includes a scripture index).

But be aware, all angels are Sons of God, so that by itself is not distinctive. And the “voice” can refer to the Metatron, which was a role rather than a person, and thus could theoretically be moved around (though it was usually Michael). But Hannah covers that too.

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By: David Booker https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-44109 Mon, 18 May 2026 23:10:24 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-44109 Hi Dr. Carrier,
 
You don’t mention in it your article above, but there seems to be a connection between Michael in Daniel 12:1-3 and Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Paul seems to be channeling/interpreting the Daniel passage, except that where Michael is mentioned by Daniel, Paul instead places Jesus (“the Lord himself”), who arrives “with the voice of the archangel.”  
 

  • 1 At that time, Michael the great leader who guards your people will take his stand. It will be a difficult time—nothing like it has ever happened since nations first appeared. But at that time every one of your people who is found written in the scroll will be rescued.
  • 2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty land will wake up—some to eternal life, others to shame and eternal disgrace.
  • 3 Those skilled in wisdom will shine like the sky. Those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and always.

 

  • 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
  • 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord.

 
Thoughts?  If Michael is the archangel who Daniel and 1 Enoch identify as the protector of Israel, and Philo says “the archangel of many names” and “he who sees Israel” was the son of God, and Jesus is the son of God and was given that name after he humbled himself (Phil. 2:9), and when he comes he will do so with the “voice” (authority?) of the archangel…that would seem to point to Jesus indeed being the archangel Michael post resurrection, right? 

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-39496 Wed, 13 Nov 2024 16:09:37 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-39496 In reply to JP.

Thank you. The link was correct, but the text not. Corrected.

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By: JP https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-39482 Tue, 12 Nov 2024 16:54:52 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-39482 In paragraph starting “Now, all of that is plain enough” the reference should be to 2 Thess. 1:7, not 1 Thess. 1:7 in sentence ending “which corresponds to Jesus (Rev. 19:11-16, 1 Thess 1:7)”. Not a big deal but saw it in passing.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-38072 Tue, 28 May 2024 17:42:22 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-38072 In reply to John Starling.

Thank you. I was aware of that—and I do think Hannah covers it; he discusses the fact that other scholars have argued this before. But I appreciate your thinking to link to an example here.

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By: John Starling https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-38038 Sun, 26 May 2024 18:47:36 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-38038 Dr. Carrier, long ago I read a chapter from a John J. Collins book, he argued that the one like a son of man in Daniel 7 is Michael. The author (or authors) of the Book of Daniel makes pretty obvious that that guy is a chief angel, and the only chief angel in Daniel is Michael. I think his arguments are very convincing:

https://imgur.com/a/okcsuQT

Source: “Seers, Sibyls, and Sages in Hellenistic-Roman Judaism”, by John J. Collins, pp. 101-102

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-32778 Thu, 05 Aug 2021 23:55:30 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-32778 In reply to David F.

I think that’s a reasonable inference. It’s just too weak to do much with (the evidence is late, reconstructive, and inferential rather than direct). In short, it evinces the possibility, but does not prove it was in place in the early first century.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-32777 Thu, 05 Aug 2021 23:53:49 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-32777 In reply to David F.

It seemed sensible to me. 🙂

So you may be overly self-criticizing here.

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By: David F https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-32771 Mon, 02 Aug 2021 20:09:08 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-32771 In reply to David F.

I will just clarify one question I had, please disregard the rest.

You establish (in Element 42 and Chapter 11.5) that there are two possible interpretations of the Melchizedek passages in Hebrews: either Jesus replaces him, or always was him. I thought that the Melchizedek tractate (Codex IX, 1) from Nag Hammadi (which I could not find mention of in OHJ) supports the latter interpretation. I also mistakenly called it a scroll instead of a codex.

According to Birger A. Pearson, “…if our reconstruction of the fragmentary text is correct – Melchizedek is given to understand that the spiritual triumph of Christ over his enemies will be that of Melchizedek himself!”

Pearson, B.A. & Giversen, S., “Melchizedek (IX, 1),” in Robinson, J.M. (ed.), The Nag Hammadi Library in English, Third Edition, (Leiden: Brill, 1990), 439.

Since we have a later tradition (Pearson dates it around the third-century) possibly supporting the view that Melchizedek always was Jesus, I assumed that this constitutes evidence for that interpretation of Hebrews. It could be either a mystery teaching that has survived into the third-century, or at the very least, evidence that some Christians also came to that same conclusion.

Is my reasoning is correct on this point?

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By: David F https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18485#comment-32770 Mon, 02 Aug 2021 18:08:15 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=18485#comment-32770 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Thank you. I realize that my post was not totally coherent, and I missed the point I was trying to make. I will try to be more careful in the future (and avoid posting when I have sleep deprivation).

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