Comments on: List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Mon, 06 Jan 2025 18:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.1 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-39889 Mon, 06 Jan 2025 18:19:07 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-39889 In reply to John Miqueli.

But he goes on to say its arguments are “pretty silly” and that it is “overwhelmingly” unlikely. So I have to account this as not really taking mythicism seriously.

Kipp Davis has said the same thing, albeit disingenuously, but for the same reason: they are confusing “logical certainty” with “empirical certainty,” correctly disavowing the former (which I am sure you could even press Bart Ehrman to do) in order to defend the latter. They would thus say this of every historical fact. It’s therefore not a meaningful statement here. Because that is not the same thing as saying it is plausible to doubt historicity.

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By: John Miqueli https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-39875 Mon, 06 Jan 2025 06:34:27 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-39875 At 1:26:00 Dan McClellan says that we can’t be certain Jesus existed and he does not think the mythicist position is devoid of rationality but that it’s significantly less likely. https://www.youtube.com/live/QOpbfbRfnpQ?si=KCYEoyV6rIeCoVFo

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By: Jeremy https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38703 Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:46:20 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38703 In reply to Richard Carrier.

Heh heh, alas yes.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38697 Fri, 09 Aug 2024 18:20:43 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38697 In reply to Jeremy.

That is indeed astonishing. But, alas, he lacks the qualifications required for the above list.

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By: Jeremy https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38684 Thu, 08 Aug 2024 10:13:33 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38684 I realise that being a semi-retired sports- and newscaster with a podcast (as well as being one of the most annoying people on the internet) generally doesn’t count very far as qualifications in this area…

However, Keith Olbermann would not be high on my list of random media figures to say this this sort of thing in public.

(It’s only about 20 seconds.)
https://youtu.be/JatnjLQej78?si=ADOa-Wfim2RpHTFO&t=1380

Of course, he’s a professional contrarian who may be basing his opinion on the crankest of arguments – and he no longer has an on-screen career to preserve – but I still find it quite surprising in the current culture.

Are you aware of any other public figures who have even dared to say something like this?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38663 Tue, 06 Aug 2024 16:20:52 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38663 In reply to Epica Guy.

Thank you. I was familiar. And she appears to be updating her list, as I see new entries there.

Overall, it is “too complete” for my list—as in, it includes amateur and crank stuff, and things too old to qualify.

My list is specifically only of “bona fide experts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs (many even sitting or emeritus professors) alive as of 2014.” Because only that is relevant to the view of the field today. I also document each statement of agreement that mythicism is plausible. Hansen is not doing that, either.

What would be very useful to me is this:

Start with the list beginning with “Allegro, John Marco” (Hansen annoyingly provided no page numbers, but if you PDF her document, you will find this list starts on page 16), look up the listed literature, and get me an actual quote and page number for any explicit statement that mythicism is at least plausible or to be taken seriously. Only that can merit inclusion on my list.

Obviously, skip everyone I already list; and skip anyone published before the 21st century (so, for example, don’t bother with Allegro); and of who remains, first confirm they have some relevant PhD (for example, Allegro fails to meet that criterion as well).

Then, find the work listed, and follow Hansen’s breadcrumb to pull a relevant quote from it, if there actually is one.

And do that all the way to the end of that list (at “Zhang, Wenjian,” whose work is too old to qualify, and whose credentials I cannot even discern). Her ensuing sections (3.2 and 3.3) can be skipped (everyone on it is either not qualified or already on my list).

With that data, I can update my list.

As I find time, I might work the list this way myself, but my initial impression is that most of her entries won’t make my list, so it is not a high priority for me. But I welcome anyone who puts the time in to check any of it for me themselves.

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By: Epica Guy https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38651 Sat, 03 Aug 2024 14:49:26 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38651 If you are interested, Chrissy Hanson just uploaded an insane bibliography of the Christ Myth Debate, and has a ton listed here that you don’t have.

https://www.academia.edu/122552862/THE_CHRIST_MYTH_THEORY_A_Bibliography_from_1970_to_the_Present

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38122 Thu, 06 Jun 2024 14:13:05 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38122 In reply to Ibn Warraq.

Thank you for the notice. But Onfrey doesn’t qualify for this list. It only contains “all those bona fide exerts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs,” and a mere degree in philosophy doesn’t count for that. This is the same reason, as I also note in the list, that “I do not list [Nanine] Charbonnel” either. But it’s still useful to know about them. Among philosophers one could also include Stephen Law, for example, as taking mythicism seriously. And there are others.

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By: Ibn Warraq https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-38119 Wed, 05 Jun 2024 20:18:23 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-38119 Dr Carrier
You might want to add the name of Michel Onfray, the prolific French philosopher and atheist to the list of those scholars who take Mythicism seriously. The most relevant work is Theorie de Jesus. Biographie d’une idee. (Bouquins, 2023). Ibn Warraq

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420#comment-36292 Tue, 11 Jul 2023 13:25:30 +0000 https://www.richardcarrier.info/?p=21420#comment-36292 In reply to Michael.

I haven’t checked Robin Faith Walsh’s exact words in each case, but by report she’s been asked that in interviews, and remains diplomatically vague as to my thesis but leans toward historicity, albeit without overconfident bombast. She’s avoided saying anything clear enough to warrant listing her here. But if you find any statement from her that would, do let me know.

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