Comments on: Two Interviews https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Tue, 02 Jun 2026 21:51:44 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.2 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12147 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:40:57 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12147 In reply to lpetrich.

I think that Christian apologists will object to your characterization of early Christianity as rejecting curiosity, empiricism, and progress.

Of course. They even object to calling the Dark Ages bad. Or saying Christianity was pro-slavery for 1700 years. Or that Christians actually fought women’s suffrage. Or pretty much any true thing that shows Christianity has been majority bad throughout history.

They can’t handle the truth.

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By: lpetrich https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12146 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 04:06:57 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12146 I think that Christian apologists will object to your characterization of early Christianity as rejecting curiosity, empiricism, and progress. In fact, many of them seem to believe that Christianity is the only scientific, rationalistic religion that there ever was.

I’ve even seen some such apologists defend the later Middle Ages in Europe as some sort of Golden Age of Free Inquiry, claiming that nobody was ever persecuted for heretical scientific ideas, for instance. But I once saw someone claim that a common way of presenting far-out ideas was to present them as purely hypothetical. That is what Copernicus’s friend Osiander did to Copernicus’s magnum opus. Galileo, however, didn’t want to be adding disclaimers to his discussions of heliocentrism stating that heliocentrism was purely hypothetical. Though he made a valiant effort to get the Church to consider heliocentrism a legitimate hypothesis, he failed.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12145 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:22:03 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12145 In reply to abcxyz.

Probably but there is considerable debate over it. I haven’t explored further.

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By: abcxyz https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12144 Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:28:15 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12144 In reply to abcxyz.

Thanks again. One more question: who is Revelation 3:9 referring to? Gentile Christians?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12143 Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:56:54 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12143 In reply to Curious guy.

Note that I never say theists can’t be scientists. To the contrary, in Christian Delusion I point out that most of the great pagan scientists were theists. Rather, Christianity was hostile to the scientific values of paganism until it rediscovered and reintegrated those pagan values (from reading and acceding to pagan literature on the point). So Christianity had to be re-paganized to become genuinely pro-science. And that is precisely what happened in the Renaissance that paved the way for the Scientific Revolution, which Newton represents the culmination of. And that is why the Scientific Revolution did not occur until that had happened, and thus why it took over a thousand years to get back on track. Thanks to Christian hostility to scientific values.

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By: Curious guy https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12142 Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:32:23 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12142 What about Issac Newton.. He believed in God but his faith didn’t prevent(?) him from contributing a lot in math and science. How would you explain people like Issac Newton. Is he an example that could be used against your hypothesis or could you come up with a plausible and reasonable explanation for Christian scientists like Newton. I’m just curious about your thoughts on it when you get a chance. Much appreciated.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12141 Mon, 24 Mar 2014 18:36:39 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12141 In reply to lpetrich.

Scholarship on the role of valuing curiosity etc. is cited in my chapter on this in Christian Delusion.

As to the rest:

Logic is a prerequisite for science but not sufficient for it, in just the same way higher cognition is a prerequisite for science but not sufficient for it. Many an anti-scientific religious worldview is perfectly logical. And embraced by beings possessed of higher cognition.

But in a fundamental sense, Occam’s Razor is empirical. Because it is a fact about epistemic probabilities, which are empirical probabilities: Proving History, index, “Ockham’s Razor.” But even more fundamentally, this is actually reductively true of all math and logic: Sense and Goodness without God II.3.2, pp. 53-54, cf. Proving History, Axiom 4, pp. 23-26. Indeed, all axioms on which all math is based are only believed true insofar as they are verified empirically, they cannot be verified deductively. This is also true of all logic, which reduces to a single law, the law of non-contradiction, which is believed because of observation, as explained in the preceding two books, and also in my Critique of Reppert on the ontology of logic. Thus all deduction reduces to empirical authority (which is one of the most important discoveries in the philosophy of math and logic of the last hundred years, e.g. Gödel), and those who reject empirical authority are often anti-logic (e.g. the recent Christian attack on set theory).

Likewise the validity of induction. It is used because it is observed to work, while non-inductive methods are observed not to work; a Bayesian probability results, and Bayesian probabilities are epistemic probabilities, i.e. empirical probabilities. And contrary to your assumption, Bayesian proofs of induction are deductive, and would not commit either of the fallacies you cite (one can also avoid Gödel by using a Willard-validated Peano arithmetic for your probabilities when building a Bayesian proof). But even these proofs remain empirical at the base level: the cognition of properly basic beliefs (Epistemological Endgame). Only those who recognize that are guaranteed of avoiding the pitfalls of hyper-rationalism (and anti-empirical deployments of logic).

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By: lpetrich https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12140 Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:04:29 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12140 The idea that curiosity, empiricism, and progress are necessary for doing science, is that an idea that others have discussed?

It must be said that science depends on a non-empirical principle: simplicity or Occam’s Razor. Consider fitting a curve through some points. For many fitting functions, if one has enough parameters, one will always be able to fit it. Yet we prefer functions with relatively few parameters, and functions that have simple forms or that are derived from some theory.

Then there’s the question of the validity of induction. Might that also be considered a non-empirical principle? A problem with induction is that if treated as a form of deduction, it’s a fallacy: Affirming the Consequent and Denying the Antecedent. Or at least so it seems. I don’t think that any philosopher has succeeded in deriving induction from deduction.

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By: Jason Dupuy https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12139 Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:46:01 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12139 I think the quote from Parsons is awesome. I’d like to have it hanging over my desk. I’m an academic but not a philosopher, so my knowledge of philosophy is uneven, but based on my anecdotal experiences, I’ve seen philosophers who are atheists but still, based on their trainings in logic, have a kind of admiration for the nutty internal consistency that theistic philosophers make. It’s wrong, but they admire the rigor that went into it, in the same way that I might admire the world building that goes into a good science fiction or fantasy novel. Have you had much experience with this?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5331#comment-12138 Fri, 21 Mar 2014 20:39:21 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5331#comment-12138 In reply to brianpansky.

There are only two kinds of “liberal believers,” those who don’t really believe in god with any fervor (who would not be covered by my statement) and those who do. For the latter, the answer to your question is yes. They base their moral beliefs on it and endeavor to enact those beliefs politically or socially. I covered this two paragraphs later:

Not all delusions are equally dangerous, of course. There are friendlier delusions, more tolerant theologies and ideologies. I can get along with many a theist or dogmatist because of that. But these still enable those worse. And they are not themselves free of harm, and are still to be criticized for that. For a good survey of the dangers of even liberal and tolerant religions (and any comparable nonrational or non-evidence-based ideologies), just see chapters four through seven of Greta Christina’s book Why Are You Atheists So Angry.

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