Comments on: Appearing in San Jose Next Week https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Tue, 02 Jun 2026 21:51:14 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.4 By: moarscienceplz https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12201 Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:56:04 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12201 Richard, I literally had a ton of fun talking with you at the ACSJ meeting last night (yes, I weighed it). 😉
Please do visit us again when Historicity is available, I want an autographed copy.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12200 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:49:30 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12200 In reply to moarscienceplz.

Yes! That!

Hopefully they will ask for donations during the event. I would appreciate everyone giving what they can, to support more events like this in future, and the community.

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By: moarscienceplz https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12199 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:35:53 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12199 In reply to EnlightenmentLiberal.

I’m pretty sure the event is free, but ACSJ has to pay $400 for the room, so if you come prepared to donate a few bucks it would be appreciated.
I’ll be there, Richard.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12198 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:48:45 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12198 In reply to Giuseppe.

No. At least, not as there proposed.

The earliest Christian crucifixion ritual was baptism. It did not involve any actual acting out of a crucifixion. And Hebrews is not describing such a thing, but explaining cosmologically what Jesus actually did.

And citing Galatians 3:1 is a major mistake, looking at English translations and not the original language: the word in the Greek is fore-written, not “openly set forth” or “displayed publicly” or any of the translations in print. Paul is simply referring to the fact that he personally showed them the scriptures foretelling the crucifixion (i.e. they saw the verses with their own eyes).

But still, one thing is correct: the first Christians almost certainly regarded the crucifixion of Jesus as an expiatory sacrifice just as Hebrews 9 explains. That was in fact fundamental to the gospel, without which there would have been no Christianity. And Christians shared in that through baptism, which for them was a symbolic death and resurrection.

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By: Giuseppe https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12197 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:20:24 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12197 Hi Richard,
I am reading the book of old mythicist Edouard Dujardin, Ancient History of the God Jesus. According to his principal thesis, ”the death of Jesus was originally, not a judicial execution, but an expiatory sacrifice practised ritually and periodically in a sacred drama” (p. 26). Then only the (rite of) crucifixion happened on terra firma, repeated thousands of times by adepts of cult, but the resurrection of god Jesus (and of his adepts) happened in heaven. This ”docetic” view is not the same of Roger Parvus, because the ”historical” crucifixion for Dujardin is only a rite practised ritually and periodically more than a time from many ”Jesuses” on earth, while for Parvus the crucifixion was historical from start and was a judicial execution for who saw the anonymous.
The myth of crucifixion is based on the rite of crucifixion, that comes first. ”Believers in Jesus represented him as crucified because they practised the rite of the crucifixion of their god. They did not crucify him because they represented him as crucified; they represented him as crucified because their rite was to crucify him, a perennial rite of expiatory sacrifice, which had its base in the totemic sacrifice and its completion in the sacrifice of the Mass.” (pag.25)

Earl Doherty sees this possibility:
While Paul provides us with no graphic visions or descriptions pertaining to Christ’s death at the hands of the rulers of this age (although he may have alluded to such a thing in Galatians 3:1), the New Testament Epistle to the Hebrews does give us a fairly detailed and graphic description of Christ’s sacrifice of his blood in the heavenly sanctuary. (Jesus: Neither God Nor Man, p.151)

For Dujardin, some traces of this old rite are found in Luke 22:36-38, the ”two swords” representing the knifes of the sacrifice, ”used by the priest to slay the victim” (p. 42), and in Matt. 27:24-25, the sprinkling of blood ”in origin a sacrificial ritual” (p.43), at least simbolically.

What do you think about this thesis? It’s true that the rite precedes the myth?

thanks,
Giuseppe

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By: EnlightenmentLiberal https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12196 Thu, 27 Mar 2014 02:28:23 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12196 In reply to b. – Order of Lagomorpha.

Look forward to meeting you then, or at least seeing you, lol.

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By: CJO https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12195 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:32:19 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12195 Hm. Well, I’m planning on making the SF event, but I’d rather catch the talk in San Jose… too far to go on a weeknight though. How are you planning on getting there, car? I could drive, but I never take the car into SF for work and I can’t see going back to the East Bay and driving all the way south. Ah well, life’s tradeoffs. I’ll see you Saturday in any event.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12194 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:30:39 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12194 In reply to b. – Order of Lagomorpha.

See above.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12193 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:27:30 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12193 In reply to EnlightenmentLiberal.

Yes, yes, and yes–so far as I know.

(Although they might reserve some seating for the disabled; and they might have a sign-in sheet; but I’m just guessing.)

If it’s anything like San Francisco, you might be expected to order a meal or a drink (as compensation to the establishment).

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/5388#comment-12192 Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:25:34 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=5388#comment-12192 In reply to praestans.

No idea. Not only has the publisher not given me a release date yet, the release date won’t be when it ends up in “shops” (if it ever does at all; “shops” can only take in a tiny fraction of books released in any given year), though it will be close to when it’s able to be ordered via Amazon in the US, and beyond that I know even less. I can at best only guess that, based on where they are now in the production process and how delayed they’ve been in the past, that we are looking at early Summer.

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