Comments on: Speaking at DragonCon. Need a Costumer! https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Tue, 02 Jun 2026 21:57:29 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.4 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13110 Thu, 23 Jul 2015 01:29:04 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13110 In reply to Asa Yoelson.

You should read those articles in full. It doesn’t sound like you got to the parts where they explained actually what was wrong with those cases. And I summarized their abstract principles in my own comment above, so your not getting it even now is a little peculiar.

But in any case, that comment you are referring to is just a really incompetent troll. They don’t actually believe a word of what they said. Just FYI. That was all fabrication, a pretense, in a really foot-eating and self-embarrassing attempt to expose hypocrisy that doesn’t exist. Because they are a toehead who doesn’t actually read anything, and thus doesn’t actually learn anything. Pretty much like a creationist pretending to be an atheist and in that guise complaining to a biologist that those creationists seem to have a point because epigenetics proves Lemarckianism and thus refutes Darwinism and gosh golly aren’t we atheists really concerned about that whateverwillwedo.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13109 Thu, 23 Jul 2015 01:16:06 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13109 In reply to George Peterson.

Of course correct. But white supremacists don’t allow Semitic peoples (most famously: Jews) to count as white. Because they are obsessed with blood mythologies, not actual skin color. Indeed, a white supremacist these days will even call a Scottish person dubiously white (as in this amusing recent example here…don’t worry, that’s a link to a site making fun of the fact!). To quote Futrelle, “White Supremacy sure is complicated, huh?”

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By: Asa Yoelson https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13108 Thu, 23 Jul 2015 00:25:46 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13108 That comment about “cultural appropriation” was quite irrational and unhinged. It is obvious to anyone with even a hint of intellect that you are not mocking Lucian, but instead celebrating the life and accomplishments of a POC who is often overlooked by many mainstream history books. That commenter really skewed his ignorance by not realizing that Lucian was one of the privileged and elite of his day, and nosy certainly was not oppressed or marginalized. Complaining about your Lucian costume is as ridiculous as complaining about an average white person dressing up as President Obama. President Obama is the most powerful person on the world- he certainly isn’t oppressed. It is a shame that some people go through so much trouble to manufacture outrage.

While I am not going to bother reading every one of his ridiculous wall of links, I did read the first two, and they actually did seem to support that commenter’s absurd and irrational views. They seemed to support the idea that starting any type of cultural garb from a different ethnic group is somehow offensive. The Lilandra post complained about Katy Perry wearing a geisha outfit, and Heina’s post complained about Madonna wearing henna tattoos. Since neither of those performances mocked another culture, their criticisms are ludicrous. But, FTB isn’t a hive mind, despite the claims of your critics. Your opinions on what constitutes cultural appropriation are much more reasonable and rational than the opinions of some of your co-bloggers. Using a post from another FTB blogger as a “gotcha” just doesn’t make sense.

Anyway, good luck with finding a costume. I am sorry but I can’t be of much help with that. I am looking forward to seeing you at Dragoncon and in the parade though!

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By: George Peterson https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13107 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 13:56:02 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13107 Actually, Syrians were and are “white” people. Just as Turks, Arabs, and Kurds are all “white” people.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13105 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:54:56 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13105 In reply to Bruce.

Links don’t work.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13104 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:44:39 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13104 In reply to Kenny Sharp.

I am in a full-time paying job. I’m a successfully independent self-employed businessman. I file schedule C’s and make a profit and everything!

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13106 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:55:45 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13106 In reply to Oswald Bates.

I’ll be dressing as an ancient Syrian philosopher (Lucian of Samosata), therefore that’s cultural appropriation?

You are in favor of white power I see. Can’t allow “foreigners” to be recognized and celebrated for their achievements.

Funny. That’s the exact opposite of what the articles you linked to were trying to teach you.

Toga parties are now blackface. Dressing as Socrates or Julius Caesar is cultural appropriation. And…

Oh, wait, what does dressing as an ancient Syrian philosopher have to do with “blackface” or “yellowface” or “redface” or any of the history of racism in the U.S.?

Ah, right, nothing.

Maybe you didn’t notice that dressing as Neil DeGrasse Tyson the person is in fact totally cool. As long as you don’t pretend to be black by painting your face to do it. It’s the caricature of a race that is racist, because of its dark and disturbing history. Likewise erasing the accomplishments of other races by pretending white people did them first. That’s cultural appropriation. Not celebrating and honoring another culture. Like ancient Italy. By dressing as a Roman Senator. Or ancient Syria. By dressing as a Syrian philosopher. (Who was also a Roman citizen, incidentally.)

Try actually reading the articles you linked to.

To wit (emphasis added because you are stupid):

“Why on earth do some white people think Blackface is funny or acceptable? Why can’t white people just wear African attire without painting themselves all black in some exaggerated clan’s effect makeup?” — Christina

Notice the difference between why blackface is offensive, while dressing as a black person without it is not. She provides several links that will educate you on that distinction and why it matters. Heck, you yourself provided several such links—some of which even explicitly make the point that dressing as a black character is not racist; it’s coloring the face to do so that is racist; they also explain in detail why. But you evidently didn’t read them. Because you are a fool who doesn’t know how to troll.

But, if you need a quick summary…

“This is not a celebration of a diverse culture; it is simply mocking and stereotyping a group of people.” — Christina

Manwhowastoostupidtoreadthearticlehecitedsayswhat?

Notice I’ll be doing the exact opposite. I’ll be celebrating a diverse culture (a wealthy and brilliant Syrian who merged Roman and Greek cultural influences with his native Semitic cultural background to transcend all three). I won’t be mocking it or him. And there is nothing stereotypical about it.

“…when the accomplishments of people of color aren’t completely ignored by the discourse of mainstream culture, they are attributed to the first white person to have mentioned them. That is the problem with cultural appropriation: the cycle of consumption and inevitable excretion, along with the inability to properly recognize who originated the idea.” — Dadabhoy

So how does dressing as and actually carrying a sign identifying the Syrian I am representing do that? Right, it doesn’t. It does exactly the opposite: it honors the accomplishments of other races, it doesn’t steal them and pretend they came from Europe.

“there is a difference between appreciation and appropriation and reinforcing stereotypes” — Lilandra

Do you know what that difference is?

It doesn’t seem so.

Hint: I won’t be sexualizing or fetishizing a race or perpetuating stereotypes historically employed to belittle or diminish the diversity of a race.

In fact, far from “a dominant group exploiting the culture of less privileged groups … with little understanding of the latter’s history, experience and traditions” (What Is Cultural Appropriation and Why Is It Wrong) I actually am a historian of the period and culture to which Lucian belongs. (Which, in the version I’ll be representing, doesn’t exist anymore.)

Likewise (ibid.), while “cultural appropriation … is exploitative because it robs minority groups of the credit they deserve,” I’m giving a dead pagan culture the credit it deserves. And rather than “reinforce stereotypes about minority groups,” I will be educating the dominant culture about just how diverse Syrian culture historically has been. Guess what, people: the land of ISIS once produced a great and outspoken nonbeliever who actively debunked hokum far and wide.

Rather than fail to “celebrate” a culture and history and person, rather than “misrepresent” them (ibid.), I will be representing them and celebrating them. I won’t be employing any “demeaning and harmful iconography.” Nor will I be “highlight[ing] the power imbalance that remains between those in power and those who’ve been historically marginalized,” but rather in fact partly restoring it by reminding people that admirable things have been and can be accomplished by Syrians.

And ironically, while insensitive cultural appropriators “remain blissfully unaware of the roots of [a] dress and the challenges those who originated it have faced in Western society,” I am, again, actually quite aware and even an expert in the subject, but the ironic part is: the man I will be representing was a member of the dominant elite. Lucian wasn’t an oppressed minority in his society, but a high ranking privileged member of it. Which flips upside down the narrative and assumption that “we” have always been dominant and in charge, or that a dominant power can’t incorporate persons of other races or cultures into its elite power structure.

And of course…

“[It’s not good] for privileged people to experiment with being marginalized to the praise of other privileged people instead of listening to and believing the voices from those groups” — Dadabhoy

I won’t be experimenting with being marginalized. I will be celebrating and advertising the life and achievements of an under-recognized Syrian skeptic. (Who lived nearly two thousand years ago. And was among the privileged elite of his day.)

P.S. Also, Assyrians aren’t brown. They were a white-skinned Semitic people, who conquered and racially mixed with the earliest Western civilization (Mesopotamia) for nearly a thousand years. Learn some history.

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By: Kenny Sharp https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13103 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:11:56 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13103 The poor philosopher is more interested in getting into a parade rather than getting into a full-time paying job. Makes sense to me.

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By: Oswald Bates https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13102 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 00:47:38 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13102 Richard, you should already know what is problematic about your plan. You want to dress up as Lucian of Samosata, who you already know was of Assyrian heritage, Are you going to be applying brownface to play the part more realistically? Did they run out of white “Famous Skeptics” for you to dress up as? The last time I checked, the whitewashed history texts are chock full of white males who they have decreed to be “Famous Skeptics”. Since you fail to discern the obvious problematic aspects of your plan, here is just a sampling of reading on the subject from your own blog network:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/aronra/2013/11/27/asian-cultural-sensitivity-101-why-is-katy-perrys-geisha-performance-considered-racist/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/heinous/2014/08/19/cultural-appropriation/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/heinous/2014/10/21/bellydancing-twerking-columbused/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/heinous/2015/03/05/marginalized-experiences/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/yemmynisting/2013/11/03/blackface-is-not-ok-for-halloween-or-any-other-occasion/

And some more 101 level reading on the subject of minstrelizing marginalized peoples since you apparently need it:
http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/18422652908/black-face-vs-white-face-whats-the-difference

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/31/why-it-s-time-to-end-blackface-finally.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/30/blackface-halloween-costumes-obviously-offensive

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-j-leonard/just-say-no-to-blackface-_b_1752139.html

Just because you are playing a “Famous Skeptic” is no excuse. Would it be okay for you to throw on some blackface and a wig and dress up as Neil DeGrasse Tyson? Of course not, yet what you plan to do is no better. Just a few months ago Greta Christina wrote about her horrible experience of dealing with a drunk racist defending blackface at the American Atheists con. Now you want to go to an AA event, where you are co-headlining with Greta Christina, and wear a brownface costume? You really need to rethink this. You are better than this-act like it.

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By: Bruce https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8103#comment-13101 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:58:10 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8103#comment-13101 Richard, you probably have a specific cap idea in mind for an Assyrian cap. But I’d think most costumers wouldn’t be sure. I found a web page with several caps. Which of these is your concept?
http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18893

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