Comments on: Sex & Sexism in Ancient Rome (Video) https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Tue, 02 Jun 2026 23:06:46 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=7.1.4 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-42760 Mon, 29 Dec 2025 21:57:49 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-42760 In reply to Belial Rexigor Levigorden.

So, my entire lecture is about answering that question:

To count as polyamory, it has to be “more than one partner, they all know about it, and everyone is cool with it.” In ancient Rome, as I explain, it was almost impossible to even find consensual relationships at all, and it’s not poly if it’s not consensual. I walk up the ladder of increasingly closer to poly cases, and end up at only one confirmed case of it.

Overall, I’d say Rome was in a better place for possible progress in that direction than any Christian culture since, but it was hardly a polyamorous society by any conceivable definition. For example, their harsh sex crime laws mandating (mainly elite female) monogamy were explicitly realpolitik and unpopular (unlike American society until very recently); but there was no popular resistance to the idea of monogamy or promotion of the idea of polyamory, and as my study shows, it was nearly impossible to find even a single real polyamorous relationship.

To illustrate what I mean: consider the middle-case I examine of high-end courtesans openly arranging partner-sharing contracts.

That was evidently more common than (so far as we know) actual poly relationships (like I do find one epitaph of), yet still very uncommon, and still not actually polyamory (the men would not have agreed but for having no choice, were not “cool with it” but just put up with it, and the woman was only there because she was paid to be, so it’s missing the “amory” even while having the “poly”). There were fewer cases of “cool with it” love relationships. So while Roman society was closer than ours to accepting polyamory, they were not there yet.

By analogy if we said “early 20th century America” (an infamous time of sexual repression in which polyamory was not commonly acceptable) was “pro-poly” because if we look really hard we can find a scant few examples of it (even if including an actual sitting President), we’d be abusing the English language. But the only difference between that and ancient Rome is how much the public and elite peers would tolerate it if it was more open: ancient Rome was significantly less scolding, but still not approving, and definitely not promoting.

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By: Belial Rexigor Levigorden https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-42732 Mon, 29 Dec 2025 14:37:55 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-42732 I watched the video, and one question I have is this: Is polyamory—where both partners accept having other partners—really a new concept? You mentioned that in Rome, most wives merely tolerated their husbands’ behavior and that men generally did not like women having other relationships. However, even among non-monogamous people today, it’s possible to feel some discomfort about a partner having other partners, and that discomfort doesn’t necessarily mean a lack of acceptance.

In Rome, non-monogamous relationships were public rather than secret, which still seems to fit the definition of non-monogamy. So their culture were pretty non monogamous in acceptance aswell not in secret

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13596 Thu, 08 Oct 2015 23:04:25 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13596 In reply to Ronald McCain.

Is that some sort of koan?

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By: Ronald McCain https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13595 Wed, 07 Oct 2015 13:52:52 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13595 Sex and Sexism. How many topics is that and are they related?

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13594 Tue, 06 Oct 2015 23:49:50 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13594 In reply to wrog.

Would it really have been that much different if Antony had won at Actium?

In the same way that Obama beating Romney was “different,” but also in many ways still a victory for the establishment. But of course that disparity was even starker than between Antony and Octavian. Like you say, they were both kind of the last two top billionaires; they also agreed on a lot more than Obama and Romney did. Antony was just the guy the “democrats” of that era backed; but yes, these were pretty elitist democrats by our standards. So it wasn’t exactly “the people’s man” in any Ridley Scott sense. But the people backing Antony expected him to preserve the Republic, not destroy it (Cicero certainly expected Antony to be sort of the best bet against the path of Caesar, although I think Cicero was aware the bet was dodgy—it was just all they had). Whether Antony would have actually done the same things Octavian did is a different question. Although I think your contrafactual as to his relative stupidity and fate is plausible.

You are also correct in your estimate of the political situation. Several civil wars had already been fought over the century before that resulted in conceding more power to the public, by extending the vote to all free male citizens of Italy. The structure of the democracy was intended to maintain the class system, but it was also done to ensure the public didn’t feel disenfranchised, because that caused bad things. Even the Athenian democracy did this (even there access to significant offices was limited explicitly to the rich). And, to be honest, so did the Founding Fathers, in a sense (the electoral college was a sneak circuit to disenfranchise “the mob” without their noticing; they were also aware that getting elected to anything required wealth in practice, so they didn’t have to signal that fact by making it required in law).

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By: wrog https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13593 Mon, 05 Oct 2015 17:32:02 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13593 Your characterization of Octavian’s victory and the establishment of the Principate as “the final triumph of the 1%” surprises me
(1) Would it really have been that much different if Antony had won at Actium? — I’d always thought he and Octavian were basically the last two billionaires left standing; that even in the alternate universe Antony would have had to do something similar (modulo the possibility he would have been less intelligent about it and gotten himself killed the way Julius Caesar did) and
(2) I’d always thought the Republic was designed from the very beginning as a means for the 1% to keep control; the main point of it originally was a way for the patrician families to share power and not kill themselves fighting over who’d be king with the Etruscans sitting right there waiting for them to fail. They may have created other assemblies as a way to let off steam but there never a time that the Senate didn’t hold all of the cards that mattered.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13592 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 20:29:47 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13592 In reply to Pierce R. Butler.

P.S. We know head scarves (hijab) were a common (but not universal) cultural expectation of women in the Middle East in Roman times (Paul argues for Christian women in Eastern churches to continue wearing hijab at least when at services).

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13591 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 20:28:28 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13591 In reply to Pierce R. Butler.

did Christians ever claim Vesuvius as an instance of Godly Wrath

Sort of. It’s widely believed Revelation 18 is just such a commentary. But we have almost no writing from Christians until half a century later, and even then only a trickle for half a century more. By then it was a distant memory, of an event that had too trivial an effect on an Empire spanning three continents.

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By: Pierce R. Butler https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13590 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 03:59:03 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13590 … ancient Rome … a far more prudish and sexist time than now.

The one moment of shock I had when reading (in English translation) Ovid’s Ars Amatoria came where the poet advises romantically-inclined young men to attend public games, as occasionally one might be so lucky as to glimpse a shapely ankle in the stadium. That kind of year-round wrapping up, considering local summers, signals possessive patriarchy at its most prudish.*

It might not have taken much – one widely-emulated empress, say – for Rome to have adopted, then mandated, veils for women and thus made them a traditional Christian value.

* Down the coast at Pompeii, of course, they celebrated the exact opposite of prudery – while still, I gather, seeing women as property. I tangentially have to wonder: did Christians ever claim Vesuvius as an instance of Godly Wrath™? If so, why didn’t it stick?

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By: blackbirdsinginginthedeadofnight https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8676#comment-13589 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 02:15:32 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8676#comment-13589 Ehrman believes a man, Jesus Christ, lived back in the day, although he isn’t convinced the N.T. quotes a single word he says. Odd. Why then does he write, promote and increase his considerable wealth claiming he’s been misquoted?

Just as strange, he says he’s in general agreement with Metzger, convinced that the entirety of errors in the N.T. doesn’t alter its major themes.

“It would be a mistake… to assume that the only changes being made were by copyist with a personal stake in the wording of the text. In fact, most of the changes found in our early Christian manuscripts have nothing to do with theology or ideology.”

Why then does he deny the virgin birth, the sacrificial death, the resurrection and the appearance of the holy spirit at Pentecost?

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