Comments on: Sex & Sexism in Ancient Rome (Transcript) https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Fri, 03 Mar 2023 01:40:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.8.1 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-35218 Tue, 22 Nov 2022 05:40:58 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-35218 In reply to seeker.

It was considered manly to top, and unmanly to bottom. Yet there were a lot of bottoms. Both secret and public. Just like today. They faced stigma (hence secrecy; or acceptance of their status), that’s all.

This should be obvious if you think about it. Lots of gay sex back then, means there had to be as many bottoms as tops. Stigma be damned. And the same then holds for heterosexual and bisexual men.

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By: seeker https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-35217 Mon, 21 Nov 2022 22:40:39 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-35217 “There is so much evidence, in fact, of women pegging men—and each other—but of women pegging men as well, and it was clearly popular.”

Where is the evidence that pegging was “popular”? I don’t think it was popular as it would have been regarded down because of how manhood was defined back then. Such act would have been considered “unmanly”.

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By: The Nerd https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13805 Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:53:41 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13805 In reply to The Nerd.

Thank you!

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13804 Tue, 24 Nov 2015 03:27:58 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13804 In reply to The Nerd.

The story is of course fake (it’s a symbolic rewrite of a story in Kings). But that doesn’t matter for this point since it would still be significant to be communicating such a message even with a fiction.

It’s possible but uncertain.

The case for that interpretation is that the author doesn’t qualify, yet it was so common for men to make lovers of their “boy” (even a slave boy), that the suspicion would certainly properly attend no matter what the real situation was. And Luke does seem to be whitewashing that by correcting the word to “slave” (a covert way of trying to neutralize the suspicion). This makes it similar to the Pericope of the Adulteress and the Parable of the Good Samaritan and many other instances of Jesus having mercy on wretches or telling stories about such.

The case against is that “boy” can mean also son, not just servant or slave, and the story in Kings this emulates indeed is about a son, and this would be a man-son pair to match the man-daughter story of Jairus (also in Mark). Plus, the ambiguity. The article you link to is incorrect in this one point:

Now, could pais really just mean “servant”? There are several reasons why this makes no sense. First, one would not expect a Roman centurion to intercede, let alone “beg” (parakaloon), on behalf of a mere servant or slave. Second, while Luke refers to the young man as a doulos (slave), the centurion himself specifically calls him a pais; this strongly suggests that the distinction is important. Third, we know that the erastes-pais intimate relationship was common practice among Roman soldiers, who were not allowed to take wives, and whose life was patterned on the Greek model of soldier-lovers. If pais just means “servant,” none of this makes any sense.

That’s culturally incorrect. There were a lot of very intimate friendships between master and slave that were not sexual. Masters often cared a great deal about them. And vice versa. Cicero’s slaves literally died to protect him against a murder squad, their love for him was so great. It’s unlikely they were all his lovers. It was not unusual to have Platonic love for a slave, as a good friend. (A likely reason the Epistle Philemon, in which Paul and the master he is writing to are both gaga for the slave he is writing on behalf of; though some people assume this then means this is a love triangle and Paul was bi/gay, that’s unlikely—if the letter is genuine—since Paul was, if anything, anti-sex, and not at all a fan of gay sex—though again, some have claimed the “thorn in his side” that he said the Devil tormented him with might have been his homosexual urges, but again, that’s still speculative. We don’t know.)

So I’d say it’s 50/50 or thereabouts: this could be the intention of the story, but we can’t be sure. At worst, it’s an allowed interpretation, because the author says nothing to exclude it. So we can’t rule it out. But we can’t confirm it either.

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By: The Nerd https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13803 Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:20:28 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13803 Question! (If you have the time.)
What do you make of this interpretation of Jesus healing a Roman’s same-sex partner?
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1743947

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By: Kilian Hekhuis https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13802 Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:03:52 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13802 Especially great to have a transcript since I’m hearing impaired, and videos are ununderstandable to me. Thanks!

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By: We are Plethora, Protectors of the Orb of Tranquility ~+~ Seated on the Throne of Fantasia https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13801 Mon, 23 Nov 2015 02:25:30 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13801 *applause*
This is great, thanks to all involved. Already enjoyed the video but it’s nice to have the transcript to go with.

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By: The Nerd https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13800 Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:53:24 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13800 This is super educational and fascinating! Thanks for sharing with everyone.

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By: Tom https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8938#comment-13799 Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:01:55 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=8938#comment-13799 Thanks very much to you and Jacob Aliet for that transcript!

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