Comments on: Notes & Interviews https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312 Announcing appearances, publications, and analysis of questions historical, philosophical, and political by author, philosopher, and historian Richard Carrier. Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:32:05 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.1 By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14098 Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:32:05 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14098 In reply to Jon Hume.

I haven’t investigated that specific question. But the place to start is Alan Segal’s Life After Death.

P.S. No.

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14097 Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:28:53 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14097 In reply to rob.

I give a full treatment, with cited bibliography of scholarship on those very criteria, in Proving History.

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By: Jon Hume https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14096 Fri, 25 Dec 2015 06:09:27 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14096 Hi Richard

Quick question on Hell! I know, not the cheeriest of topics, but you’re one of few I trust on these issues.

Why is the Valley of Hinnom/Gehanna considered the destination of the wicked in the Bible?

I have only found that Pagans were worshiping the god Moloch here and the Jews didn’t like this so cheerily they slandered this area.

Thanks!
Jon

Side Question: Do you ever think the Christians could be right about Hell?

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By: rob https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14095 Fri, 25 Dec 2015 00:46:45 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14095 Dr Carrier

can you recommend any books or youtube videos which explain and critique criterion’s such as

multiple attestation
criteria of embarrassment

criteria of dissimilarity

thanks

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By: hdrs https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14094 Thu, 24 Dec 2015 21:46:55 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14094 The Nehemia interview was great. It had the feeling to me of a case study in the intended effect of the outsider test of faith. He of course is not invested in Christianity to start with and despite having strong related beliefs, as he interjects during the interview, he is quite happy to analyze it as an outsider. Refreshing indeed.

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By: favog https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14093 Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:15:14 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14093 Good stuff there. I really liked the paper by Einhorn. I was an ahistoricist before finding your work, and since running into it I’m pretty much on the line between simple ahistoricism and mythicism. At this point, I think positions like hers are the best bet the historicist has — “The reason you can’t find Jesus is that you’re looking in the wrong place.” I’d love to see a similar examination of the idea that he existed a century earlier, under King Alexander Janius. Of course, arguments like that from historicists don’t help the theists very much …

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By: Richard Carrier https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14092 Wed, 23 Dec 2015 05:18:05 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14092 In reply to humesapprentice.

(1) Violates Occam’s Razor. The common source problem doesn’t explain Luke’s mistakes, some of which are based on peculiar decisions of order made by Josephus. Plus, that theory requires positing an additional unknown entity: a third unevidenced document. Which also by remarkable coincidence has all the same material shared between Luke and Josephus (why should there be so much in Luke that is also in Josephus?). So it’s prior is low as a hypothesis. It requires too many ad hoc assumptions.

(3) Is not ad hoc. You have invalidity merged three separate hypotheses in order to claim it’s one complex hypothesis. That’s dirty pool logic-wise. They are completely separate hypotheses. The TF status as forged was established separately (no one knew it derived from Luke), and it is internally obviously a Christian invention (that’s not an ad hoc assumption; the probability Josephus wrote the TF as-is is virtually zero from internal evidence alone). The reliance of Luke on Josephus was also established separately, on separate evidence, which excluded the TF by prior proof (not by ad hoc assumption). Then, after that happened, the dependence of the TF on Luke was discovered separately. The interpretation of that discovery must take into account what has been previously proved (Luke’s reliance on Josephus and the TF not being by Josephus).

That third hypothesis then lends itself to the trifold question: (1) Did Josephus (or whoever) use a different Gospel than Luke but which Luke used? (2) Did Luke derive his Gospel from the TF in Josephus? (No matter who wrote the TF) or (3) Did someone insert the TF using Luke as guideline?

(1) Is far too ad hoc (too many improbable and unevidenced assumptions). It is so obviously dependent on Luke, that we do not need to posit an imaginary and conveniently-similar third document to explain its content. (2) Is too improbable on two counts: (a) Luke’s account is far too complex to have been based on the outline of the TF, because its order of events follows from his fleshed out narrative that links to his whole Gospel; whereas the TF author far more evidently has just taken bullet points from Luke and kept them in the same order, while leaving a lot out that doesn’t make any sense to anyone who hadn’t already read a Gospel—that is, we can explain that order in Luke as resulting from his narrative structure, and his structure makes sense of everything on the list; we can’t explain that order in the TF by any other means than supposing it’s a bullet list stripped from Luke’s narrative (because there is no other reason for that order to be so consistently replicated there, and the elements make little sense in the absence of Luke’s fuller narrative). And (b) the vocabulary of the TF is more Lucan than Josephan (or anything else), which is less probable on any other hypothesis than influence from Luke.

That leaves (3).

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By: humesapprentice https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/9312#comment-14091 Tue, 22 Dec 2015 01:43:45 +0000 http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/?p=9312#comment-14091 Somewhat off-topic. I have a question but I was thinking it would be easier to layout this way than to try to ask outright. Anyway, given that Luke and Josephus have much in common, and given that the TF seems to be inspired by Luke’s gospel, we have the following possibilities to account for this: (1) Josephus and Luke both used a common source. (2) Josephus used Luke (listed only for the sake of logical possibility). (3) Luke used Josephus AND a later forger used Luke’s gospel to create the TF (and coincidentally used Luke instead of using Mark, Matthew, John, Paul’s letters or creating the passage de novo). Option three seems like the most ad-hoc and improbable one up there. GJ Goldberg has suggested the common source option and has some arguments for it, and I think I am bound to agree. However, he also argues that this prior source was written by a Christian hand. Anyway, what do you think about that hypothesis?

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