Creationists may have bitten their own head off with their idea of specified complexity. Because there is a case to be made that if specified complexity can exist, the supernatural cannot. The creationist William Dembski famously contrived the concept of “specified complexity,” as a distinct category of mere complexity, early this century. Many criticisms (some fatal) have taken this out of contention as a useful pathway to design arguments. But outside its epistemic application, the ontological category remains valid: there is a difference between mere complexity, and specified complexity. And that difference matters.
Explaining the Difference
A large sea of completely random events can be extremely complex, because it is large (the more options, the more complex) and less bounded by limitations (the fewer limitations, the more options); but it will remain quite simple to model and thus in no need of explaining its structure by any other mechanism than random chance acting on a simple set of fixed rules. For instance, I can double the number of cards held in a hand at poker (from five to ten), and thus greatly increase the complexity of a drawn hand, yet the hand drawn is still determined completely at random. As anyone who has experience playing Pinochle can attest, there are many more possible hands in a ten card hard than in a five card hand. You can have hands that are quite complex indeed. But all we need to explain that, is to state how many cards are in a deck, how many will be drawn, and that they are randomized upon drawing. Those three statements, explain all observed complexity in every hand ever drawn. No convoluted theory about card-selecting demons is needed to explain the ensuing complexity of hands that will be observed.
Dembski’s goal was to identify that there are things that are not random like poker hands, yet are also complex. The basic obvious point is that certain things are so complex, that random chance is not a good hypothesis to explain how they arose or why they continue (like, if you kept drawing flushes, no matter how hard you tried to randomize the deck each time). Which is why we then start proposing other hypotheses (e.g. a card shark is rigging the deck); and in the sciences, we’ve developed tools for testing those hypotheses to see which is most likely the cause of the observed complexity (e.g. ruling out the card shark).
At some point, we would even have to concede magic is involved, were it so.
For instance, if we ruled out every hypothesis we can think of for the weird “every hand draws flush” phenomenon, yet someone present says they are controlling it with magic—and we can control for that, by having them “turn on and off” the magic for us; and having them show the effect in a wide variety of circumstances, particularly ones it is extremely unlikely they could rig or control any other way, e.g. like at several different tables at several different casinos, with no prep time—then magic would, alas, become the most probable explanation of the effect. Science would then start studying that magic, like it does any other power or force in the universe. And soon we’d have peer reviewed sorcerology journals, and the whole shebang. It’s the fact that this never happens that forms the empirical argument against the supernatural.
But there may be a logical argument against the supernatural. I’ve argued this before, in The God Impossible. There I make the point that we can trace the outline of an empirical argument for the logical impossibility of the supernatural. An actual formal proof may be too complex for us to discern presently (the formal proof of Fermat’s Last Theorem alone is 129 pages long and took centuries of hundreds of dedicated researchers to develop). But that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Here I will get even more specific, and trace out what one such formal proof might look like, in very general terms. Whether anyone can ever develop it further remains to be seen.
Getting From There to Intelligent Design
Of course Dembski meant by specified complexity something even more specific: if a highly complex but orderly outcome (like “every hand draws a flush”) could be caused by fixed natural laws (some dumb mechanism), then it no longer qualified as specified complexity (though the assembly of those laws could be, but that was then a separate question). Because in that case, the outcome only has complexity owing to the abundance of materials the mechanism works on (the number of cards in the deck; the number of cards in the hand). The outcome can still be modeled very simply: you have some randomness perhaps, plus some simple rules that just always apply (e.g. the number of each kind of card, the number of cards, and the size of the hand, are all just fixed facts governing the outcome; none of those facts are, themselves, intelligent agents).
In the end, since when governed by fixed laws, the outcome is then not at all improbable, you no longer need posit design. The genius of Darwin was discovering just such a process (combining some simple fixed laws with random chance) for all of biology. Ooops. No more need of a designer. This has annoyed Christians for over a hundred and fifty years now. But alas, stymied, they moved to cosmology instead, the last frontier. Or tried finding things in biology Darwin’s process couldn’t explain, like irreducible complexity—although they failed. But though they keep failing on the facts, Dembski at least tried to give Christians the methodological machinery to succeed, should they ever actually find an example. (We’re still waiting for one. As likely to arrive as Godot.)
Thus, Dembski tried to bootstrap this ontological concept into an empirical test: if you see complexity, and can rule out randomness (e.g. when random chance to produce that complexity is highly improbable) and fixed order (e.g. no dumb set of fixed rules can produce it), the only remaining hypothesis with any probability is intelligent design (e.g. some form of intelligent information processor; which itself could still be fully explained as the combination of randomness and fixed order, so Dembski admitted that getting from “design” to “supernatural designer” required additional arguments). As many then pointed out, this isn’t how empirical reasoning, much less science, actually works. But I’m not going to get into that today. It’s not necessary here. Here, I’m only interested in the ontological category of specified complexity: a thing that is (a) complex and (b) not that way randomly or inevitably.
Why We Think the Supernatural Is Possible
As I’ve explained in Defining the Supernatural (and later in an article for Free Inquiry), in practice pretty much everyone means by “the supernatural,” phenomena that evince specified complexity without a reductive mechanism (see also my follow-up discussions in Defining the Supernatural vs. Logical Positivism and Epistemology without Insurmountable Regress).
The way I defined it in the past was more colloquial, something like “mental phenomena that cannot be reduced to nonmental phenomena.” Everything someone says is supernatural, is something satisfying that definition. Because any time something mental is fully explained by a system of nonmental parts, everyone agrees it is natural, not supernatural. In my original blog article I gave many different kinds of examples, from love potions to gods. In each case, we can describe a potion that everyone agrees isn’t magic, and a god everyone agrees is really just a space alien; and the difference is always whether the thing in question (the effects of the potion; the powers of the god) can be reduced entirely to a system of nonmental entities (nanobot flotillas; superhuman neurology), or not.
We can then easily explain why we ever think the supernatural exists, as simply an inevitable cognitive error. We can observe a mind think, or a car roll uphill, without seeing the engine inside actually bringing about the effect (the person’s brain; the car’s motor). So we can conceive of a mind thinking without a brain, and a car rolling uphill without an engine. But that’s an error. In fact, neither is possible: minds can’t exist without brains, nor can cars roll uphill without some complicated machine bringing that about. It is our inability to see the mechanism, and our seeing instead only a cause and an effect (without all the intervening messy system of causes—the neurons and blood vessels, the gears and pistons—linking the one to the other), that leads us to imagine the supernatural: a disembodied mind; a magical car. We don’t see the hidden mechanism; so we think we don’t need the hidden mechanism. But that’s a fallacy.
And that’s what the supernatural actually ends up being in everyone’s mind:
Activity without mechanism. Complexity without components.
And there’s the rub.
Activity without mechanism, actually logically entails complexity without components. They are just translations of the same phrase, synonymous. But…isn’t complexity without components by definition a logical contradiction?
Why We Should Think the Supernatural Is Impossible
Consider a god’s mind. A god has to know things (store information), and think things (process information). But there is a difference between correct and incorrect information, present and absent information; between conflation and distinction. A god has to be able to distinguish one person’s face, from another; and correctly connect each face, with other information about the corresponding person, like that Joe’s face goes with Joe’s job in sales and wife of eleven years, and Mark’s face goes with Mark’s service in the military and husband of eleven years. That information could be connected up differently—wires crossed, and Joe’s face gets incorrectly linked to Mark’s husband, producing the false information that Joe has a husband, and so on. And notice how many different ways connections can be crossed up: the more information, the more different connections are possible. And most of them (in fact, all but one of them; out of effectively infinitely many) will be false.
And that’s just for the one part of a mind: stored information. The other part, information processing, is the same: it can be connected up correctly (only ever producing logically valid conclusions from the premises available, namely the stored information; and always producing all such conclusions possible), or, in some degree or other, incorrectly (sometimes producing logically invalid conclusions; and sometimes not producing possible conclusions, e.g. for want of time or processing power). And indeed there are infinitely many “incorrect” processor arrangements (in which some part is flawed or limited), and only one possible “correct” one (in the sense of forming all possible valid conclusions; rather than only some, or some invalid, or both). A processor can get conflated and jumbled up, and thus produce some invalid conclusions, or prevent obtaining some available conclusions. Its “circuitry” (the rules by which it processes information, and how much) can be perfect or imperfect.
What becomes apparent here is that both are manifestations of, by Dembski’s own logic, specified complexity. You can’t get a sound mind by random chance (all the information, all in the right connected order), or indeed any mind (how would you roll a die on a table, and get “knowledge of Joe’s face”? … on Boltzmann brains as the exception, indeed, see my discussion in The God Impossible). And what set of dumb fixed laws would do it? We actually do know the answer—evolution by natural selection can do this. And did. But of course, it can’t get the perfect result (both our information and our processor are always limited and flawed), nor even would it getting that result satisfy what Dembski really wants: a supernatural god. An embodied, naturally evolved superbeing, is still just a space alien. Not a god. And if there are no fixed set of laws “prior to and outside of” god that can produce the correct mind, how then does his mind exist?
That’s not the argument I’m going to make here. Though it is a time-tested one. If everything with specified complexity needs a designer, who designed god? Theists never have any coherent answer to this. They just handwave with some vague insistence that some ontological argument will sort out the problem and explain why God’s perfect mind is a logically necessary outcome of simply being God. But when we ask them to produce that argument, all we get is fallacious bullshit (see my discussion, for example, in Bayesian Counter-Apologetics and Plantinga’s Two Dozen or So Arguments). Hence the problem remains. God’s complexity is vast. Where did it come from? Explaining one complex thing (e.g. the observed universe) by just pulling out of your ass a wholly unevidenced and merely proposed even more complex thing, is going backwards in the explanation department. It only makes the observed facts (the universe) less likely, not more so. As explanations go, that’s just a failure.
But I have in mind another problem with all this. One you might not have thought about yet. The question I am concerned about here is not causal (the “how it got that way”), but ontological: what forms the components and keeps them separate, so they don’t get mixed and conflated? How do you have complexity without parts? It seems inherently impossible, a direct logical contradiction, to say something is complex and has no distinct parts. It is also a direct logical contradiction to say God has a perfect mind and is not complex. Because a perfect mind has the most specified complexity possible: of all the infinitely many “less perfect” arrangements of information and circuitry, only one is perfect. This requires God’s mind to be not only extraordinarily specified (of all the minds he logically could have, he has that specific one) but also extraordinarily complex.
This is as opposed to, for example, the mind of a worm, which is vastly simpler. It would be illogical to say God’s mind is simpler than a worm’s, or a vegetable’s. Obviously it’s vastly more complex than either. Otherwise, he would’t be a god. He’d just be a dumb force or something, as unintelligent and ignorant as a worm or a cabbage. But if God is extraordinarily complex (owing to the vast specified complexity of his mind), he must have parts. Knowledge of Joe’s face has to be separate from knowledge of Mark’s face. Otherwise, by definition, God could not tell the difference between them.
Likewise all other information, which constitutes, by definition, maintaining distinctions between things. And distinctions entail component separation. You can’t distinguish one face from another, if you can’t keep them separate; and you can’t keep them separate if there is no difference between them; and if they are the same one part (and thus not distinct parts), there would be no difference between them. It does not help to say they are “inseparable” and therefore “all the same part” (though how knowledge of two distinct faces would constitute a single inseparable thing escapes me), because that’s a non sequitur. Parts being inseparable, does not even make each of them the same thing, much less the same part.
This seems to me a much more serious problem than the causal one (how God just luckily happened to get his perfect mind, though that’s a pretty serious problem in its own right). This isn’t solved by theologians’ attempts to claim God’s knowledge (etc.) follows necessarily from his other properties (like his omnipotence), or anything else akin. That would only solve the causal problem. Not the ontological one. It also doesn’t work, since no such demonstration has ever been produced. No one has shown that a god exists who even could have that kind of omnipotence, much less actually does, or how or why it exists or works; or that, even having it, that it would in fact produce the requisite mind: omnipotence by itself is inert, so it cannot already have the highly specified and complex intelligence and desires to be used a certain way, before it is used to create, arrange, and maintain those desires and intelligence—it’s an impossible chicken-and-egg problem. But theists like making things up for which they have no evidence and pretending that is “evidence.” But no.
And even if that did work, we still have the ontological problem. How does God have that complexity? Not how did he get it; but how does it stick around. How does it obtain at all. (Many of these problems have been noted before.) Even if God uses his “omnipotence” (how is that manifest again? [sound of crickets]) to “keep his mind intact” by continually reassembling it over and over again in every micro-moment of time, that still doesn’t explain how he assembles it at all. Even in any micro-moment, what keep’s Joe’s face separate from Mark’s face? What keeps God’s mental circuit’s logical operations in the right order, so as not to flip a modus ponens into an affirming the consequent? We can diagram the logical operations and their order and arrangement that make the difference between modus ponens and affirming the consequent; but a diagram of a thought mechanism, doesn’t think. And in any case, even a diagram requires physical materials (e.g. ink on paper), with parts. The more so an actual working mechanism, that successfully runs a modus ponens operation instead of something else.
It seems self-evident that if nothing exists to separate Joe’s face from Mark’s face, their faces cannot be distinguished. They will simply blend together, and there will be no way to tell them apart. So some thing must exist to keep them apart. Also, to connect them together (if, e.g. Joe and Mark are friends; as opposed to enemies; or relatives; or co-workers; or just don’t know each other). The information has to be stored in some material. That material need not be conventional matter. It could be stored as some distinguishable structure in light, or a twist in spacetime, or made out of ectoplasm, or something. But it has to be something. Otherwise, information cannot be stored in any way that allows distinctions to be made. Nor can a mind process information in any way that allows correct vs. incorrect inference procedures to be run on that information. How could it, if we can’t keep distinct even the various possible procedures or relations? And without a circuit stamped in some material, there is no way to keep distinct even the various possible procedures and relations.
In short, quite simply, God’s mind appears to be logically impossible.
And this extends to all of the supernatural. Because God is just an extreme case of the supernatural. Every other case is the same: by proposing a property or effect can obtain without parts composing and driving it, all claims of the supernatural claim complexity without enough parts, which is a logical contradiction. Few parts, means no complexity. Yet the observed phenomenon, is complex.
For example, for a car to magically roll uphill, you need a certain specified complexity (improbable, sustained, directed movement of a mass), without an underlying mechanism to cause it (like the machinery of an internal combustion engine). All the “parts” you need to get the result (some gravity-defying, entropy-reversing, direction-maintaining machinery) are removed from the system. Yet the result remains. That’s a logical contradiction. You have a mental phenomenon (intelligent motion: the car just “magically” knows which direction to go and just “magically” wills itself to go there), which is way more complex than we think, yet with no nonmental machinery bringing it about (no information processor to get the direction right and the forces generated and pointed the right way). The outcome requires more parts (the information processor and physical driver) than are claimed.
This inconsistency, between how simple we think a phenomenon is, and how complex it actually is, is a routine error in human cognition. We’ve run into this repeatedly in AI development: try programming a car to roll up a hill (staying on the road; pushing against gravity). It’s far more complex a program than you probably assumed. I mean, it seems so simple. Car, direction, roll. Just three words. Surely the simplest thing ever! Nope. It’s actually very complicated. Even in a simulation, like a computer game, where you totally control all the laws of physics, and can literally just make a car roll uphill by simply saying that it does, the code—even the most efficient code logically possible—is really incredibly complicated. It’s not just three words. Even if you wrote an operating system that could do it with three words, that would just conceal the complexity in the operating system. Try coding “car, roll uphill” with just the words “car, roll uphill,” without any underlying operating system (much less physical processors and memory chips). Nothing will happen. Because it can’t.
We intuitively take this as an empirical fact. “It can’t,” because we tried, and observed computers don’t just obey words we type into them; you have to program the computers to (in some sense) know what those words mean, etc., so it takes a hell of a lot more words; likewise the rest of the world: we simply observe that telling the world to behave a certain way, has no effect. But really, I strongly suspect, it’s a logically necessary fact. It is simply logically impossible to have a computer without an information processor; and you can’t get any purportedly supernatural effect, without an information processor. Because you need some mechanism that translates commands and descriptions, into effects (that translates the symbols “car, roll uphill” into a car actually rolling uphill; even a simulated car rolling up a digital hill). And you can’t get a specified complex effect (a car “knowing” what direction to roll, and “knowing” to overcome the forces that would normally prevent it, and how), without information processing (such as: an engine and steering system).
This is true everywhere. Because all worlds are just computers. Whether simulated or real, all any universe is, by definition, is just an information processor and a system of information. We call the processor “the laws and constants of physics” and the information “facts.” But it’s still just a computer. It is no more logical to expect the universe to manifest supernatural phenomena, than it is to expect a computer to obey commands with no operating system—much less to expect a computer to “know” what operating system to run, when it has no physical circuitry or memory to store and manifest that system. If it has no structure, it can never “know” the difference between that operating system and any other. It can’t make any distinctions. And yet making distinctions, is required for intelligent action. Or indeed any nonrandom action at all.
As with all supernatural phenomena, so with God: we think we can have disembodied minds (and powers and everything else), because we can imagine all the required shape and structure and forces and distinctions existing without a material substrate; but we can only imagine that with a brain: a material substrate. It is thus an illusion, and a fallacy, to conclude that things we can imagine on a physical processor, can exist without a physical processor. This illusion comes from not knowing (or forgetting) that we are doing all this imagining on a physical processor; that we need it, to imagine anything at all. This was the point I already, and more extensively, explored in The God Impossible. But it should seem even more obvious now. Since a material appears to be needed to manifest structure and maintain distinctions, indeed even to imagine structure and the maintaining of distinctions, maybe God is impossible.
Complexity Logically Entails Components
So you probably can’t even conceivably have a mind without a physical structure to realize and distinguish its needed components—its individual and distinct pieces of knowledge and their correct relations, including procedures of reasoning and inference. But you certainly can’t have a mind that is simple, in any relevant sense. A mind must necessarily be complex; else it could not know or think anything. As I noted, it is logically contradictory to claim even a human mind, much less a God’s mind, is simpler than a worm’s, or even a cabbage (and cabbages, especially their information processing system, are pretty complex). Obviously, it’s vastly more complex. That’s what makes it a human or a God. And not a worm or a cabbage. This is a problem for theologians like Edward Feser who need God to be the simplest thing possible. But alas, that’s impossible.
Spacetime can be the simplest thing possible. Because you don’t change spacetime by taking any of it away or changing how much of it there is. You can thereby change what shapes it takes, what things it manifests, but spacetime itself doesn’t change its properties. Each bit of it, keeps the same properties. And remains spacetime, and not something else. In fact, you can’t break it up into any further components. There is nothing “out of which” spacetime is made. Other than just spacetime. Everything else—particles, matter and energy, shaped regions of spacetime—and all the structures these can combine into, like planets and people and brains and computers, is not fundamental. It is a product of the substrate of spacetime. You can break them up, remove components, and they cease being what they are, and become something else.
And this means minds, also, cannot be the substrate of the universe. They can only ever be a product of it. Because minds have specified complexity. Which means you can take parts of them away (remove information, remove connections between pieces of information, remove inference steps from reasoning circuits; and replace them with different ones), and they become something else. God, less smart and knowledgeable, becomes just a space alien. Remove enough parts from God’s mind, and he’s just a human being; indeed he could end up being identical to any one of us. Or dumber. Because remove even more, and God becomes identical to a worm. Remove even more, and God becomes identical to a cabbage. Feser would insist that this is impossible because all of God’s knowledge is logically entailed by…something or other. But he never produces any evidence or valid argument that that’s so.
Richard Dawkins is credited with making something akin to this same argument. Though he’s not the most careful of thinkers. There is an attempt at responding to it in his form in The Routledge Handbook of Contemporary Philosophy of Religion edited by Graham Oppy, but it mostly just takes advantage of Dawkins, for want of being a practiced philosopher, being his own straw man. This is in Ch. 4, “New Atheist Approaches to Religion,” by Trent Dougherty and Logan Paul Gage, in a section called “Dawkins on why there almost certainly is no God,” pp. 54-61. This illustrates how hard it is to actually escape the conclusion of God’s enormous specified complexity—and thus possession of components, as complexity as a concept logically entails.
There they claim it is not obvious that God’s mind would be more complex than the known universe, for example. But it is obvious. Because the contrary is actually logically impossible. It is a well-known law of computer science that the simplest computation for simulating a system, is the system itself (see Labyrinths of Reason on this point). In other words, it requires a more complex computer to simulate a world, than the world simulated. Simply because you have to have all the complexity of that world, plus the added complexity of the infrastructure of simulating it. As in God’s case, not only must God’s mind contain all true information about the universe, which is logically necessarily identical in complexity to the universe thus known, but his mind will also contain all true information about all other possible universes. This he needs in order to decide which is the best universe to make, and the best actions to take to maintain it (which knowledge, requires comparing one choice with all others, so as to discover the best). But even if he didn’t know any of that (a fact that would substantially diminish his divinity), his mind must contain all true information about himself. Thus, his mind cannot avoid being more complex than the universe…which for its entire existence and operation requires no added information about gods.
Dougherty and Gage absurdly think they can refute this by jotting down on a piece of paper “God knows everything” and thereby prove God is simpler than “everything” (they ask us to start our list of “everything” with aardvarks). This is phenomenally stupid. Obviously the word “everything” is just an artificial code that’s hiding a vast complex of things…starting with aardvarks. You can’t claim God is simple because the word “everything” is simple. That word may be one word, of only ten letters. But its kolmogorov complexity is vast. Try describing an information system that contains “everything” and you’ll start to see the problem. Even if you can come up with a simpler algorithm that, when run to completion, would produce “everything” (aardvarks and all)—though good luck with that—you still end up with a complex result. Where are you going to store all that information? Not in anything simple. You can’t fit “everything” into 128 megabytes of RAM. But moreover, you then have to admit the universe is itself already governed by such an algorithm. And it is necessarily simpler than any mind could ever be.
That’s right. Think it through. In no way was “make aardvarks” coded into the fundamental physics of the universe—ever, much less at the start of the unfolding of the program (which we call The Big Bang). A vastly simpler set of rules (only the most fundamental laws and constants of physics) unfolded inevitably into aardvarks (and everything else). Indeed, it may be as simple as a single point of space-time with no properties at all—no laws and no constants—other than what is logically necessary. But even if not. The set of code describing the core laws and constants of physics, is necessarily smaller than any set of code describing a mind capable of knowing that universe code. Because again: the mind has to have all the added complexity (of being a mind, and not a mindless universe) on top of the information known (the code for the unfolding the universe, which itself is obviously not conscious of itself, or anything). Thus, even if you can come up with a simpler algorithm by which God knows everything, it must still be more complex than the thing known: the algorithm that would by itself produce everything, without God. “But you need God to write that algorithm!” Yeah. Exactly. Which requires more complexity in God, than could possibly be in that algorithm. See the problem?
And complexity logically entails components, the parts that make the complexity. In any mind, a part can be removed, or changed, and it becomes a different mind, but still a mind. Remove the right parts, or enough parts, and it ceases even to be a mind. Though cabbages have complex information processing systems, we do not generally say they have minds. Because their processors are so simple, they don’t even have a central nervous system (or in fact even a nervous system); they accordingly are not producing any coherent form of cognition, much less knowledge or right reason. Take even more parts away, and you don’t even have a cabbage anymore. You have mulch. Eventually, just a box of rocks. Quite the opposite of “things that have minds.” So it cannot be claimed God is simple. He must necessarily be vastly complex; indeed, by logically necessary fact, he must be more complex than the known universe. And he must have parts, components. Lest it would be logically impossible for him to be complex.
And how does one have components, which require being kept distinct from each other and properly arranged, without a material substrate to keep them in place, and keep them apart? Much less connected and arranged in just the right way—as is required to make the difference between a cabbage and a person: which is entirely and solely a function of how the components are arranged.
Conclusion
God has extraordinary specified complexity. Specified complexity without parts is logically impossible. And parts without a material or substance to keep them separate from each other, and connected in the right way, is probably logically impossible. And the same goes for every other claim of the supernatural. As to be supernatural, means in every case (from magic potions to ghosts) to have complexity, without parts—to have a specified complexity in action or property, that reduces to no simple components explaining it, but just “is,” without any further explanation. This is asserting something has the complexity, without any actual complexity. A logical contradiction. And thus, a logical impossibility. This is in no way a deductive or formal proof of the conclusion. Not as yet. It’s just the outline of an argument that someone probably could formalize someday. It’s hard to imagine any coherent way to avoid it. And that is evidence for the impossibility. We have reason to believe it’s logically impossible; without yet knowing for sure that it is.
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Thanks Dr Carrier for that post ! That might be God’s riddle to us, if there’s any God. If God is a specific complexity, it might learn through us and any life forms that might exist in the Universe as AI would do on Earth. So no perfection, but it learns from any mistake, and all His data are the whole Universe…
And maybe life in the Universe is that substance that bounds with that specific complexity…
Or maybe not…
Yeah great topic !
You might be describing Process Theology. Or Tippler’s Omega Point. Or Roko’s Basilisk. But in every case, it only makes plausible sense if God (his mind and all) is a physical object. The ancient Stoics thus imagined God as a physical fluid pervading all existence (The Pneuma, a concept adopted by the Jews and imported into early Christian theology, only out of fears of blasphemy they usually reimagined The Pneuma as a machine used by God rather than as God himself; though the Nicene Council sort of reunited them into a single entity). These concepts would avoid the logical conundrum. But then there is no evidence for any of them. So there is no reason to believe in any of them. They are as likely as the claim that Earth is currently governed by a secret alien race of lizard people. Indeed, there is arguably more evidence for that, than for any theology.
Thanks for your reply, I didn’t know there was once such beliefs, back in Antiquity ! Like you said, all these lack physical evidence.
One more question, and that one is about that American Canadian astronomer called Hugh Ross.
I did have one his video suggested by YouTube and I watched it. At least he is not coming out with that Young Earth non-sense. I’ve tried to screen across your Archives to see if you had an article for his book “The Improbable Planet” that was published in 2016 or 2017. https://www.amazon.com/Improbable-Planet-Earth-Became-Humanitys/dp/0801016894
What will be your thought about that man, who is a pastor and an astronomer trying to put together Science and Christianity ?
There isn’t any need to address his speculations in particular, since they are refuted by the same general arguments. Which is why all non-fundamentalist scientists reject them and he never gets any of this published under peer review.
See my discussion of the Bayesian problem with the fine tuning argument for a start. And on origins of life, my article in Biology & Philosophy on why all creationist protobiology statistics are bogus; or my colloquial summary thereof in Sense and Goodness without God, the section on the origin of life. I also have an old blog article that touches on it too: Statistics & Biogenesis.
There are others. Drop down and category menus on both my current and old blog include “biogenesis” and “cosmology” as subject heads.
Interesting and thought provoking. I do have one question though. Is it the case that your entire argument could be based on a fallacy? We are bound by the material physical universe. All our knowledge including science, math, philosophy, and even simple logic are derived from this material physical spacetime we exist within. So is it valid to extend those cognitive faculties and thought processes to entities that are alleged to exist outside our spacetime? In our reality, all information is ultimately material. Information for us is only ever stored and transmitted as mass or energy, or both. Thus the information about Joe’s face and Mark’s face has to be kept separately in separate components. Or else they will get jumbled up.
But we have no idea what an intelligent mind unbound by our physical reality and wholly existing outside our spacetime will be like. Why would this mind need separate components and pathways for storing and processing information? If this information is not in the form of mass or energy it would be wholly unimaginable to us. How can we even apply our notions of complexity to it?
Perhaps Richard will address this, but isn’t your question backwards? You are essentially asking why not allow wild speculation to inform the argument for god. I think the answer is because it provides no logical or demonstrable function. That a thing which does not follow the laws of physics might be able to do things not known by physics is practically a tautology. But the question we have to ask is whether we have reason to suspect that thing exists in the first place.
We can’t appeal to “maybe” to form a “probably.”
The same concern occupied me while reading the article as well.
It’s also the same argument that the intellectual theists I know (mostly Muslims) use when pressed with these questions as they always say that the questions are incorrect because they are based on an equivocation fallacy which applies the rules of the physical universe outside of it.
That rebuttal is of course what this article is answering. Keith is correct.
First, the converse assumption that structure is only required for physical things is false. That’s why, for example, comparing a disembodied worm mind to a disembodied human mind to a disembodied god mind clarifies the issue: obviously that is still an escalating scale of complexity and specification. Thus, “physics” and “materials” and “parts” don’t matter to the specified complexity problem. God still faces it.
Second, an argument cannot be rebutted by simply being gainsaid. “One plus one equals two.” “No it doesn’t.” is not an argument. It makes no sense to say, “Well, God can do anything, so he can make one plus one equal three,” as that simply isn’t true (it’s logically impossible, so even a God could not do that).
The second argument made here (after the specified complexity argument) is that it appears that structure logically requires physics. This cannot be rebutted by simply saying “Nuh-uh.” The point is that this appears to be a logical impossibility, and thus God can no more keep thoughts and memories separate without a physical mechanism to hold the structure and keep them separate, than he can make one plus one equal three.
The only difference is that we don’t yet have the formal proof in this case, so it remains remotely possible that this is merely an apparent illogicality, and that somehow the apparent illogicality of maintaining structure without parts can be overcome with magic. But then that becomes an inherent explanatory problem for theism: it requires a power nowhere in evidence and quite improbable on plain analysis (as demonstrated here).
That necessarily reduces the epistemic probability of God relative to explanations of affairs that require imagining no such extraordinary, unevidenced, and unlikely power. And that reduction is in addition to the reduction from specified complexity (hence see the originating article, The God Impossible).
These two problems combine to expose, for example, a Hidden Fallacy in the Fine Tuning Argument. And likewise every other argument for God.
I think my ability to generally imagine that there could some alternative reality where everything that we can evidence doesn’t apply is the crux of my issue. Your comment made me understand that this is might be a remote logical possibility but is not supported by any evidence at all so its probability is extraordinarily low.
I absolutely love this post. It is a slightly modified version of my “incomprehensibility theorem”, which I defined in relation to ID. It roughly states that an intelligent designer cannot be both incomprehensible and falsifiable. (Which is typically expressed by using the phrase “the lord works in mysterious ways” as a last resort when all other apologetics argument options are exhausted.)
I call that an axiomatic intelligent being – as opposed to an emergent intelligence as the result of underlying natural processes.
In other words, if the “designer” (or any “supernatural cause/entity” such as souls etc.) is declared to be incomprehensible, then by axiom it cannot ever be understood in terms of underlying mechanisms, comprised of simpler non-conscious rules.
This implies that no definitive conclusions can be drawn that could rule out the hypothesized “cause”/entity, which means it is not subject to the scientific method.
However, your point goes even further and so far I am not at all convinced of the supernatural already being a logical contradiction, even though I would certainly love that being the case.
I think the root of my skepticism lies within the phrase “complexity without components”.
But before I talk about my problems with the underlying argument, I want to applaud it because it successfully removes the foundation of apologetics responses to the critique of the “first cause/unmoved mover” arguments.
Their typical reaction is that god is atemporal/eternal and therefore does not require a cause, hence they try to explain away the special pleading fallacy that allows them to cut short the infinite regress.
However, if we do not talk about “temporal” causality, but simply about underlying mechanisms irrespective of spacetime and the origin of such a being, that still leaves the question of its internal complexity, which still requires them to commit a special pleading fallacy.
On the other hand… and this brings me back to my criticism of you argument… If we hypothesize (and then presume) a being of infinite complexity, (without getting into the potential problems for defining such a term), it will be rendered incomprehensible by axiom.
Of course, when we do that, such entities become removed from the scientific method due to not being falsifiable, which is what my theorem above states.
Believers in the supernatural may not be aware of this, but imho they certainly are not logically contradicting themselves just by their beliefs. The logical problems only arise once they start reasoning and justifying their beliefs in the supernatural. That’s why it is called faith for good reasons. Faith in the supernatural is not self-contradictory by definition, because by definition is belief without sound reasons. Only the attempt to find sound reasons is bound to be void of logical soundness.
Epistemically, all unfalsifiable claims revert to their prior probabilities. Thus infinite complexities are eliminated by their own definition. They cannot be restored to probability by making them untestable; to the contrary, making them untestable is what ensures their extraordinary improbability.
This is why we can never be warranted in believing unfalsifiable claims (except when they are so commonly true we don’t have any reason to doubt them). In short, there is no analytical difference between theoretically and practically unfalsifiable claims in terms of their epistemic probability. Their only analytical difference is that one of them has fewer theoretical opportunities to ever be tested than the other (given that zero is always fewer than every other number). But that has no effect on the epistemic probability of untestable claims.
See my analysis of why Cartesian Demons are always unbelievable (on present evidence). Defining them as unfalsifiable does not escape the analysis.
I think your sentence might be misformulated. That they don’t know their beliefs are self-contradictory, does not permit the conclusion that they are “not logically contradicting themselves just by their beliefs.” They certainly are. They just don’t know that they are.
But as to this specific case, where we actually have not formally proved supernatural claims self-contradictory, it is true that we cannot say for certain that believers in those claims are contradicting themselves merely on that basis. They typically do however have a lot of contradictory beliefs (and are unaware of that being the case), but they would be contradictory even if none of them were supernatural beliefs.
For example, believing a complex entity is simple. That is a contradiction. One most theists harbor. It remains a contradiction even if that entity wasn’t even proposed to be supernatural. It just so happens that it’s being so proposed might also entail a contradiction. What we would have to say instead is that they have not proved that belief to be coherent (which is not the same as saying we have proved it to be incoherent). Whereas the other contradiction (that a complex entity is simple) remains a demonstrable incoherence.
Hi, Dr. Carrier. I was wondering if this is a proper formulation of AFSCAS? (I thought I’d help you out, hopefully I did)
It’s an argument to a probability, not a certainty. So exacting syllogisms like that are not applicable. But you have at least the gist. It would be better phrased as:
Then one would build out syllogisms that establish 1. and 2, reflecting the arguments and evidence I present for each. And so on.
Note the first argument (that I explain isn’t the one I go into here but that I do present first) is that God must have parts whether or not preserved in a material and therefore God is not simple but in fact highly complex, and thus requires even more fine tuning than any universe. It will not do to explain one complex thing by appeal to an even more complex thing: that only reduces the probability of your explanation. The probability of such a vastly complex thing just “existing” uncaused is vastly improbable; unless you can explain it with some simpler process (like a “Big Bang” theory of God or a “multiverse of gods” or something, all of which are abhorrent to modern theologians; and in any event covered by a separate argument of mind in The God Impossible).
The second argument, the one I then go on to develop here, that we have no evidence components can remain distinct in a system of components without a material way of preserving their properties and independence (with no material, they all just dissolve into each other, into a random chaos without interacting parts; no causal system, no mind). We actually cannot even conceive of such a thing without using a material system to do it (our own brain). So for the same reason we have no reason to believe structure can survive without being preserved in some material (not necessarily atoms; could be a spiritual pneuma or psychic ectoplasm or exotic matter or who knows what; just, at least, something), we have no reason to believe anything supernatural can exist, least of all a god. The supernatural simply by definition even to imagine requires an impossible state of affairs.
This leaves the possibility of a Natural God (a physical, either process-evolved or Botzmann-spontaneous, superbeing). Which other arguments render improbable.
It might be worthwhile to expand this in a new blogpost and perhaps use this as an argument against essences. To my eyes, the same kinds of arguments can be used against the idea of, for example, the essence of a lion existing in multiple physical forms, and especially without a physical form. Edward Feser uses these concepts a lot.
Oh, yes. Indeed. I have already critiqued essence theory as pseudoscientific elsewhere:
The Thomistic Proof
Thomism: The Bogus Science
And:
Essentialism Has Long Been Refuted
Theism, Naturalism, and Explanatory Power
Why I Think Theology Is Ridiculous
I’m a bit confused by this point: “It is a well-known law of computer science that the simplest computation for simulating a system, is the system itself”
If a system can be produced by something that is simpler than the system, then does this not imply that the simplest computation for simulating a system is running that simpler system? For example, hardcoding “2 4 6 8 10 12 14” seems obviously more complex than running a for loop that increases by 2 each time.
In the case of god, this stuff probably doesn’t matter, especially since he’s supposedly outside the universe, so perhaps there is no program of god that can compress the contents of the universe. But I’m confused behind why that general point is true.
What about evaluating the complexity of say a space alien creating something vs. something being created without the space alien (let’s assume we’re evaluating this question apriori, i.e. as if we had no knowledge of the world)?
I have two reasons to not prefer the space alien. a) there are more logically possible ways for something to exist undesigned than designed, especially given a space alien. b) even a SPECIFIC undesigned process that creates something seems more simple than a space alien creating it, simply because one can extract away all the overhead behind a space alien producing something (such as the structure of its mind and other complexities), and include only the relevant causal chain that produces that something, if that makes sense. This seems intuitive but I’m not sure if correct
In simulation cases, it can’t. This is a formally proved point in information theory.
You can make sims that don’t sim the system but only one part of it (e.g. cosmological simulations on physics, aerodynamic simulations in aerospace engineering). But that’s not simming the system (e.g. a cosmology sim does not create a universe; an aerodynamics sim does not create a working airplane you can fly in).
Likewise, you can make sims that start simple and deterministically fold out into a complex system, but that is simply reproducing the system, not simulating it. That basically just is the system you are describing. And if it’s not, it can only “not” be if it has additional components.
I discuss the problem of 1:1 simulations requiring more components than the thing simmed in my main article on simulation theory.
But what is that simulating?
And what is it simulating but itself and systems 1:1 identical with it?
Indeed, any system not itself would have to have other components, and thus require more dataspace to realize—thus the simplest sim is simply itself.
This is easily proved logically:
(1) Either the thing simmed has fewer, the same, or more components than the sim of it.
(2) If it has fewer, the sim is using more components than it and is therefore not simpler (this is the resulting law of computation).
(3) If it has the same, the sim and the thing simmed are identical (and it is not a sim but the thing itself).
(4) If it has more, the sim is failing to sim every component of the real system (but is only simming a subset of it).
The last point follows from the fact that a sim to be complete must have a 1:1 correspondence, component for component, to what is being tracked in the real system. Otherwise it is not tracking something, and therefore is not a proper simulation of it.
That’s just adding another universe (the place or plane or point where God is, and then the extra space of this universe). That doesn’t make things simpler.
But the point you are quoting is in relation to omniscience. If theists abandon omniscience, then they can get a simpler God than a universe (because then there is not, and hence need not be, a 1:1 correspondence between every piece of information in the universe and every thought or memory in God’s mind).
This is explained in the article you are commenting on (that quoted line is followed by several paragraphs explaining it). So see that again to understand the point.
The space alien requires a whole other universe to exist in, confer its powers, and build and run the sim in. That’s vastly more complex than just “there is a universe.”
This is why all simulation theories fail to make any epistemic sense. It is not that there can’t be sims, but they can’t be the kind of sims that theists need.
We ourselves, in maybe a hundred or a thousand years, will be building and living in simulated worlds, but they will be vastly simpler and more efficient than this world—and will remain dependent on this world (for all their substance and physics). This doesn’t permit the conclusion that our current world is one of those (for the reasons I lay out in my sims article). But it also doesn’t require positing anything even more absurdly complex like a God (the aliens, just like us, will be vastly simpler, not omniscient or infallible or unconstrained by external matter and physics). Hence, alien engineers are always more likely than gods; but undesigned worlds are always vastly more likely than alien engineers—until sufficient evidence arrives (e.g. the aliens universally demonstrate their existence and role—just as God could do, but suspiciously doesn’t).
The comparison is moot because the aliens also had to come from somewhere. So the probability of there being at least one undesigned habitable universe is 100% even if aliens built ours. That’s why aliens don’t really add anything worthwhile as a theory. Why not just stop at “the world exists”? Why invent an entirely second world that exists, just to explain how this world is designed by aliens in that other world we need no aliens to explain? If we need no aliens to explain the alien world, we need no aliens to explain our world.
Likewise gods.
But yes, there are vastly simpler cosmological theories that would get us habitable universes, and thus neither gods nor aliens are useful hypotheses. We have no more need of them than we need posit that angels “also” push the planets according to Newton’s law.
I discuss this from several different angles in the Argument from Uniformities and in respect to cosmology in The Problem with Nothing. And the point comes up a lot in The Utter Destruction of the Fine Tuning Argument.
Undesigned universes are always simpler to explain than gods, particularly the kind of gods believers want.
That’s the gist of the article you are commenting on.
great points. Just to be clear though, and I should have been, I meant the hypothesis of some aliens existing WITHIN this universe yet somehow undetectably tinkering about with our world.
Intuitively, this obviously seems implausible, but I’m guessing the formal way to show that would be through Bayes theorem? I believe you mentioned a few examples in your proving history book
That wouldn’t be the Creators, though, so wouldn’t be relevant to the issue being discussed here. Unless you are disingenuously debating an exorcist (that link discusses the epistemic Bayesian hierarchy of “crazy explanations,” including aliens).
What happened to the structure of the article? Most of the paragraphs have been deleted!
Thanks for pointing this out so quickly!
Last update of WordPress deprecated the original code affecting earlier articles. I fixed this one (so it should work now) but likely there are others, I’m checking now.
Dr. Carrier,
This post is a worthy contribution to the debate about God’s simplicity. As I was reading it, I remembered a paper by Graham Oppy that I read a few years ago: The Devilish Complexities of Divine Simplicity. Perhaps you read it as well, but in case you haven’t, Oppy actually defends the doctrine of divine simplicity with an account based on a truthmaker theory.
The article is freely available:
https://www.academia.edu/23446298/The_Devilish_Complexities_of_Divine_Simplicity?sm=b&rhid=42392055981
If you have read it or will at some point, please let me know your thoughts on it. Thank you!
Yeah. That appeared in Philo decades ago. It’s important for someone doing a dissertation on the topic but it’s largely obsolete for current debates.
This is for two reasons.
First, the current apologetical trend is to defend Swinburnian simplicity, which that paper does not address.
Second, current apologetics commonly conflates two different senses of simplicity to activate equivocation fallacies in this domain.
Ontological simplicity is not the same thing as epistemic simplicity. The latter is also known as “theoretical” simplicity and counts all the assumptions not proved in evidence that one must adopt to get a theory to fit the totality of evidence. An ontological simple can still be theoretically complex; and that matters for any attempt at Bayesian theology. See my discussion here. The trick often pulled is to insist on ontological simplicity (a feature not proven in any credible way, just presumed or insisted upon) and then claim that entails epistemic/theoretical simplicity which isn’t the case.
When we return to the first item, Swinburnian simplicity is an argument to ontological simplicity, but it is inherently fallacious, because it requires maximum specified complexity (a perfect and boundless mind), and tries to steal that in by supposing omnipotence would automatically produce it, but that’s a bootstrap error: you would need the perfect boundless mind to know how to reliably deploy boundless power to produce a perfect boundless mind, which is a chicken-egg paradox that can’t be logically solved. Whereas boundless power without a mind is simply nature (nature contains all possible things as potentials and thus contains all powers, it just can’t activate them all, or any of them intelligently, because it is mindless).
Which is why the debate between atheists and theists is really a debate over whether the ground of all being has thoughts and feelings or not. And there is just no logically valid way to get “thoughts and feelings” to be ontologically simple.
I cover aspects of this in various places. You are already at one of them here (The Argument from Specified Complexity against Supernaturalism). But also read Swinburne’s Absurdly Complex Simplicity (which is mainly about the epistemic problem but does discuss its relation to the ontological problem), and then my discussions under Explanatory Power: The Other Weird Argument from Trope Theory followed by The Logical Entailment of God’s Properties.
Dr. Carrier,
Thank you for replying to my comment and for providing the links for further reading!
I have read the sections you recommended, and I have also read The Problem with Nothing and The Argument from Non-Locality. Some of what you wrote is a bit difficult for me to understand. That said, I have a few questions I’d like you to please answer.
1. In the post Theism, Naturalism, and Explanatory Power, you say that Spacetime “knows” everything in the sense that everything that exists or happens does to its direct eyewitness, and everything that could be, can only be through some other arrangement of it; but as it has no mental properties of itself, it doesn’t know anything in the sense required by Howard and Alander.
Also, in the post The Problem with Nothing, you say that here we are just working out what must necessarily be the case if there was ever a state of total nothing, the most empty nothing logically possible. And that means such a nothing-state will be a hypersphere of zero size in all dimensions, with no contents, and governed by no rules or laws, except the laws of logical necessity.
By random chance alone, the spacetime point you call Nothing can spontaneously produce any logically possible thing, but it also has no contents. Shouldn’t it possess information about what it can spontaneously produce stored somewhere? (I don’t understand why spontaneous creation by random chance precludes the need for such information.)
2. At the end of The Problem with Nothing, you say that Nothing as here defined is unarguably far far simpler than God as an explanatory entity. Are you referring to the spacetime point’s specified complexity?
3. If we replace the spacetime point with a spacetime volume the size of a particle (e.g., a proton), how much more complex would it be compared with the spacetime point?
4. In the post The Argument from Non-Locality, you write that we can’t say “But I can imagine God existing nowhere,” because that statement will be literally false: to imagine anything at all, you have to use a brain, which has a location. It is logically impossible for you to imagine something without a location. You are always imagining things in a location.
Could you please expand on this? I think you’re saying that because humans use their brain (which is located in spacetime) to imagine or intuit things, they cannot imagine or intuit anything with no spatiotemporal location.
5. In the post The Argument from Non-Locality, you make the case that probably spacetime must exist in all logically possible worlds. According to the argument from Nothing, a spacetime point explains the existence of the universe we are observing. That point immediately changed into something else (most likely an infinite or quasi-infinite multiverse made of a random collection of universes). If spacetime must always exist, and the spacetime point briefly existed before anything else did, it would seem to follow that the spacetime point existed an infinite amount of time ago. Doesn’t this mean that the past is both infinite and had a beginning? To my knowledge, the paradoxes that threaten the logical possibility of an infinite past can be resolved, but only by saying that the infinite past has no beginning.
6. Before The Secular Frontier replaced The Secular Outpost, I read some comments by Keith Parsons in which he expressed his skepticism regarding the use of probability theory outside empirical contexts. Below are some of the things he wrote:
“[C]oncepts like probability, that have clear meaning in empirical contexts, have no meaning at all when we leave behind any possible empirical context […].”
“[W]hen we are talking about ultimate posits–whether God, the universe, or anything–we have no basis for assigning any prior probabilities at all. Whatever exists as the ultimate brute fact is neither probable nor improbable. It just is.”
“When you have prescinded from all possible empirical (nontautological) information, I see no reasonable basis for assigning objective a priori probabilities to any posit. For any h whatsoever, what is p(h), considered with respect to absolutely no background information at all? Any answer you give would seem arbitrary, or, I think, simply meaningless.”
“I think that in such circumstances, our thinking has become dialectical in Kant’s sense and that we are trying to employ the concept of probability out of any context that would give it meaning.”
Basically, the axioms of probability theory establish a formal model, but its applicability in given contexts is not determinable by the model itself. Therefore, we cannot take it for granted that the probabilities of ultimate posits will be determined by the principles we employ in empirical contexts (e.g., simplicity).
What do you think about Parsons’ comments, given that the spacetime point you call Nothing is an ultimate posit?
Everything possesses information. That is a logically necessary consequence of existing.
You may have been framed by Christian propaganda regarding the word “information” here. Information always attends existents, i.e. any time anything exists for any reason whatever, so does the corresponding information. Information is therefore not a mental object. It is just a set of physical facts. See Is God Needed for “Information” and “Laws”?
Yes.
Fewer ontological facts are needed to describe or specify it.
If one asks, “But isn’t a zero infinitely specified?” they will be close to understanding the existential version of the argument (The Other Problem with Nothing): if absolute zero (total simplicity) is infinitely specified and therefore the least likely thing to be selected to exist, a random chaos is most likely to be selected to exist instead. My whole argument follows.
In truth every exclusive random possibility is infinitely specified, so their relative probabilities cancel out. Hence the net specified complexity of nothing becoming a random something is near zero. That’s why nothing cannot remain nothing. Because that would entail infinite specified complexity—just as selecting a God would. And that’s even assuming gods are logically possible (see The God Impossible).
Note that volume is relative. So you first have to specify what you mean by the size you are describing. If nothing else exists, relative volumes don’t exist, and so nothing “has a volume.”
In logical terms, however, a zero point contains only one geometric point. You can imagine a space that has only two geometric points, and so on. The complexity goes up with the number of points (exponentially, because the arrangements of those points are permutative).
Though whether that is even possible is in question, because there is a principle in topographical logics that as soon as there is any extension of space (any nonzero amount of it, no matter how small), it can be mapped to infinite distinct geometric points.
So, for example, if the zero point expanded to allow two points, that would actually create infinitely many points. For example, geometrically, a proton has infinitely many distinct locations inside its volume. So does a planet. That’s the funny thing about infinities: they are all equal in size (until you count permutations a la Cantor but that ends in the same insight: some infinities are larger than other infinities, but at each “size” of infinity there are infinitely many infinities the same size as each other).
So to specify a volume out of all possible volumes is really only marginally more complex than a zero point, because every nonzero volume has the same complexity, it’s just more complex than a zero point. When you start specifying structure within that volume (e.g. is the volume a proton or an electron or a rabbit or a planet or a universe) the specified complexity starts skyrocketing.
However, simple physical volumes, though they can have a huge specified complexity, will always have a vastly smaller specified complexity than a god. An empty volume of space awash with virtual particles is simpler than a rock of the same volume; a rock is simpler than the brain of a worm; the brain of a worm is simpler than the brain of a cat; the brain of a cat is simpler than the brain of a human; the brain of a human is simpler than future superintelligent computer; which is all necessarily simpler than a God brain. Ergo God’s mind has to have vastly more specified complexity than even a tiny nonzero volume of empty space.
When you get to cosmologies like Inflation, they trade on a simple nonzero starting volume that necessarily expands into a multiverse. One can say that the start point for Inflationary cosmology has a high specified complexity (there have been estimates; it’s huge, but nowhere near infinite), but a God has infinitely more. So the relative probability of an Inflationary bubble just existing for no reason is infinitely larger than that of a God just existing for no reason. Inflation is therefore infinitely more likely than God.
If it is the case that my logically-necessarily-unstable nothing-point existing for no reason is vastly (but not infinitely) more likely than Inflation owing to being so much simpler in its components, then Inflation would have to be an outcome of my model. But that still leaves us with Inflation as the most likely explanation of observations. God doesn’t even have a chance.
Correct.
As explained for disembodied minds (that’s in what you must have read by now), one cannot prove disembodied minds are possible by using an embodied mind to imagine one, because that remains only possible with an embodied mind (so far as you can observe).
So, too “existing nowhere.” You cannot prove “existing nowhere” is possible by imagining it somewhere (like in your mind, which has a location, in both space and time).
That doesn’t follow. If it existed at all, it can’t have lasted more than a fraction of a second. Therefore, it logically necessarily will always exist a finite amount of time ago.
The only way to have a past eternal timeline is if there was never nothing (and thus never an absolute zero point). That is the existential condition that I treat in The Other Problem. It’s possible. No evidence currently can rule it out. So both models compete with God. And both models are vastly more likely than God. And they are roughly epistemically equally likely to each other (because we have no evidence at the moment to rule one more likely than the other).
Correct. That’s a tautology. To say “infinite past” is identical to saying “no beginning.”
Which is often sound thinking. But not always. Because you can ramify a logical possibility space without making it exist empirically. In fact, all frequentist statistics used in all the sciences constantly do this (ramify counterfactual possibility space into distinct probabilities) in order to produce usable probabilities even with empirical data.
But one can reframe the Parsons objection differently: the problem is not that unempirical probabilities are meaningless or useless; the problem is that to claim something exists for which no data exists and vast data exists that lack it is to make an unramifiable claim. For example, we can empirically ramify the relative probability of all the causes of a plane crashing that we have observed (we have known data points of how often it’s pilot failure, mechanical failure, unavoidable collision, or weather event). But if you come in and say “I think a magical flying monkey flew into the cockpit and strangled the pilots,” you can’t even give us a fringe probability of that: its probability is unramifiable because we have no examples of any of the relevant things that evokes. All we can do is set an upper bound based on things we do know (e.g. monkeys probably don’t fly, magic probably doesn’t exist, etc.), and the end result is going to be an extremely small probability, so small as to render the claim moot on present evidence. But we can imagine an extraordinarily complex array of evidence being gathered sufficient to establish that such monkeys and magic do exist and do do that sort of thing. So the probability is not entirely inaccessible. It’s recoverable in the complexity and compound probability of the conjunction of things required for those monkeys to exist (the prior probability is simply the inverse ratio of the likelihood that would be sufficient to prove it).
I don’t think Parsons was well versed in Bayesian epistemology so he likely did not know any of this. He was just reacting to the consequential fact that unempirical probabilities are always going to be too small to matter and thus are usually foolish to argue from.
So, statements like probabilities “have no meaning at all when we leave behind any possible empirical context” are literally false, because you can specify a counterfactual model to replace the expected empirical context (you can simply hypothesize an empirical context), and in fact we necessarily do this all the time (especially in the sciences). I think what he was trying to get at (but lacked the resources to articulate specifically) is that hypothesizing highly convoluted and presumptious hypothetical contexts is simply foolish, because even insofar as it can be done (and usually people doing this are so lazy and noncommittal they don’t even do the specification required to derive a probability from), the result is always going to be useless: convoluted counterfactuals simply have vanishingly small probabilities and therefore are rarely worth the bother of considering. It’s a waste of time. And that is a thing Parsons said generally about philosophy of religion. He’s largely right about that.
That’s logically impossible. Parsons evidently did not think this through. There is always a rationally necessary ordering of any permutation space.
He is making the same mistake as the guy who said the LHC will destroy the Earth because it had a 50% chance of making a black hole capable of eating it, because “it either will or it won’t, therefore it’s 50%,” which is not how probability works. If the LHC can make a million different particles, they can’t each be 50% likely, because the sum of their probabilities must be 1. So the probability of making the expected kind of black hole has to be well below millions to one (in fact it’s far, far lower than that—almost as near to zero as the LHC spontaneously duplicating a whole cup of tea).
When you exhaust the logical possibilities in a set, and have no evidence favoring any over the other being the case, the probability of each is simply one divided by their number. That is a logically necessary fact. And that is a probability. And it won’t be 50%—unless there are only two things in the set (for a probability of either of 1/2), which would require those things to exhaust all logical possibilities, and for there to be no evidence (none whatsoever) making either more likely than the other.
What I think Parsons was reacting to is, rather, that when the possibility space is infinite or quasi-infinite (vast), and no evidence favoring any one possibility, necessarily no one can say one is more likely than another, nor that any one is even likely at all, only that there will be one—not which one. Which is correct.
If there are a million logically possible arrangements of hats in my closet, and you have no evidence favoring any arrangement, then the probability that you will find an arrangement of hats in my closet is 100%, but the probability that you will find a specific arrangement of them is a million to one against. So you cannot say, staring at my closed closet that any arrangement is more likely. Nor can you say any one of them is likely at all (they are all maximally unlikely). All you can say is that there will be one. Which is uninformative. That’s like saying, “There’s a 100& chance that there is either a god, or a million other things instead.” That leaves God maximally unlikely. Without arriving at any knowledge of what is the case. Both are true at the same time. Parsons is criticizing people who confuse this state of affairs as an argument for God being likely. It’s the opposite.
He is here confusing objective with epistemic probabilities.
But even with objective probabilities, there is always a logically necessary probability of every possibility given some set of information. So, for example, if the set of information is only “tautological information,” then every singular (not compound) possibility is equally likely. If there are infinite possibilities, each has a probability of infinity to one against. That’s still a probability. So I think he is confusing useless probabilities (like infinity to one) with no probabilities. But even infinitesimal probabilities have a mathematical system to them that can be analyzed. Science runs infinite sums of infinitesimal probabilities all the time. All frequentist calculus is doing that, in every study ever published.
This is closer to saying something correct. He is still confused. “Arbitrary” means selecting without reason (so, just “declaring” God has a 37% chance of existing is “arbitrary”). Rational ordering of probabilities in a permutation space is not arbitrary. But it can be described as “meaningless” if you are using that word over loosely. “Meaningless” usually refers to a proposition without content. But here he is using the word more like “an idea without utility.” For example “infinitely unlikely” is not meaningless (that has a definable content that can even be used in functional mathematics). But it is often useless. There is no way to claim an infinitely unlikely thing exists, unless you are admitting which infinitely unlikely thing exists was decided at random, and therefore cannot be a specific thing like “God.” Until you get enough evidence, but then you are outside what Parsons is talking about (as then you have some of the “nontautological information” he was excluding).
His remarks don’t have any applicability to my argument. My probability argument is rationally ramified. So it avoids all his concerns about uselessness or undefinability.
Dr. Carrier,
Thank you for answering my questions! Your responses clarified a lot for me.
I particularly liked the response to my question about Parson’s claims. In that answer, you use concepts such as (a) objective probability, (b) epistemic probability, and (c) arbitrary (probability). Another related concept that I’ve come across is (d) subjective probability. The way I’ve heard it, if we’re adopting the subjective interpretation of probability, we ought to be willing to say that different agents can have different values for their epistemic probabilities, even if the information available to them is the same. I.e., different agents can have different values for P(hypothesis/backround knowledge), even if the hypothesis and the background knowledge express the same propositions for all agents. In your response to my question, I think you contrast objective probability with epistemic probability rather than with subjective probability. Could you please explain the relationship among the four concepts I mentioned?
In my fifth question, I wrote that if spacetime must always exist, and the spacetime point briefly existed before anything else did, it would seem to follow that the spacetime point existed an infinite amount of time ago. You pointed out that this doesn’t follow. If it existed at all, it can’t have lasted more than a fraction of a second. Therefore, it logically necessarily will always exist a finite amount of time ago. The scenario I was thinking about is one in which the following claims are true: (a) spacetime must always exist, (b) the spacetime point didn’t come into existence without explanation/cause, and (c) the spacetime point’s existence was very brief. I thought this implied that the past is infinite. But since I was wrong, it must be the case that (d) the past is finite. The scenario in which (a), (b), (c), and (d) are all true seems possible to me, but only if the B-theory of time is also true. Would you agree?
(1)
On the first question, that is all explained in my study of the very methodology you are asking out: Proving History. You may need to consult that.
The tl;dr is that objective probability is ontological probability (the physical probability of a thing), while epistemic probability is the closest we can get to that with the information available. As information increases, EP approaches OP. But as omniscience and infallibility never exist, EP never equals OP (though it can get so close as to make no consequential difference in their values).
I avoid the phrase “subjective” probability because it is misleading and results in a lot of errors when people use or argue from it. But in a sound application, “subjective” means POV, i.e. epistemic probability, the probability that H given what you know at time T. It does not mean arbitrary or opinion or feelings or intuition. All epistemic probabilities are constrained by objective evidence. All of them. Given B and E, P(H|E&B) follows objectively. The only subjective element is that, as an individual, your access to the contents of E and B are limited to what you have access to. So P(H|E&B) can differ from person to person if they do not have equal access to information. In academic subjects that doesn’t usually matter though. This isn’t like a criminal case or corporate secrecy where some parties have access to information the rest don’t. In this matter all information is public. You can therefore either account for it or ignore it; and accounting for it implicates only objective entailments (you are validly deriving results from facts), while ignoring it can only generate epistemically invalid results (then you are basing probabilities on vacuous intuition or feelings).
(2)
This all depends on your semantic meaning. If by “always exist” you mean infinite time, then yes, you are simply describing a tautology. But if by “always exist” you mean exists at every time there is, then that is compatible with there only being a finite time. If no time existed before T = 0 and no time exists after T = n, than anything that exists in between 0 and n “always exists,” because it exists at every time there ever was or will be. It exists at “all times.” That does not entail or even imply “all times” is an infinite number of times. And if it is past finite (if there is no time before T = 0) it cannot refer to “an infinite amount of time ago.”
So whether there has been a finite or infinite amount of time ago is unresolvable on the facts at hand. No evidence exists to tell us which condition we are in. But my model works for either condition. On the “no prior time” condition, the zero point collapses into either no time at all (so there only ever is just one point of time and therefore nothing else comes to exist) or some extension of time (a universe). Logic then entails the latter is infinitely more likely. But there is always a finite time ago. On the “past infinite time” condition, the existential selection does not occur at “a” time; it collapses across all infinite time atemporally (as it must be decided what will exist, and “nothing ever exists” is one of the possibilities, but there are infinitely many “infinite timelines” that could exist instead, so it is infinity to one that one of them will exist instead of nothing).
As to whether “only if the B-theory of time is also true” that’s not true for the purpose here. A theory entails the same outcomes: if time has been running infinitely there was no first time and thus never a nothing-state, and in that condition, which infinite A series exists must have been existentially selected at random, and that entails some infinite A time series will be infinitely more likely to exist than no series at all and thus nothing existing at all; and if time started at some past point, what happened at A = 1 is entailed by random selection again, only this time at A = 1, and the selected timeline will proceed from there (in which case what is selected is a “rolling condition,” i.e. every future time’s contents is causally decided by its prior time’s contents, but all starting at the random selection of one set of contents at A = 1).
Dr. Carrier,
Thank you for your answers!
You wrote that on the “no prior time” condition, the zero point collapses into either no time at all (so there only ever is just one point of time and therefore nothing else comes to exist) or some extension of time (a universe). Logic then entails the latter is infinitely more likely. But there is always a finite time ago.
On the no prior time condition, why does the zero point exist? If it began to exist without a cause and shortly after collapsed into an infinite multiverse, why not renounce the claim that the zero point existed at all and say that the infinite multiverse began to exist without a cause?
You also wrote that on the “past infinite time” condition, the existential selection does not occur at “a” time; it collapses across all infinite time atemporally. This makes me think about what you say in The Other Problem with Nothing: the Argument from Nothing provides a naturalist metaphysics for why anything exists at all, and why this thing and not some other. It’s a random selection effect—whether that happened at some specific time in the past, or is simply the atemporal “dice-roll” whereby what would exist was selected to be.
I don’t really understand what you mean by the existential selection collapsing across all infinite time atemporally, or by the atemporal “dice-roll” whereby what would exist was selected to be. Are these metaphors you use to say that out of infinite logical possibilities, only one is that nothing ever exists?
P.S. I keep reading your blog posts. They are quite long, but also very interesting. I will probably ask you some questions about what I read, but I will do so in the comment sections of these posts.
I’m sorry, I thought you were already aware of this. If not, you may need to catch up. Start at The Other Problem with Nothing, which you even mention here, so it perplexes me that you don’t know that it answers your question or links to the articles that do. Maybe you need to start from the beginning: The Problem with Nothing.
For the present article, the answer is irrelevant. It does not matter to the specified complexity and structural incoherence of then supernatural why an initial zero point might exist, and whether it exists is simply one hypothesis among many, not one that anyone need commit to here.
Yes. We don’t have language for things we have no experience with and never could. So we have to borrow language that approximates or analogizes. Most language is like that actually, even for ordinary things. That’s why language is efficient. But it does mean you need to abstract away the irrelevant material to understand what is being said, as when we say “the sun just came up,” we have to abstract away the implication that the sun moves and understand the analogy is to relative and not absolute motion. No one is saying the sun moves when they say it is moving across the sky (except actual flat earthers; everyone else understands the analogy meant).
So in the existential case, there is no time at which a decision is made. What exists is simply automatically decided by the metaphysically entailed reality that if nothing exists to make one outcome more probable than another, every outcome is equally likely, which entails some non-nothing infinite series of events will exist (to infinite probability). It does not come to exist at some time. It just exists. And all we are explaining is what will exist on that condition.