I’ve been asked a lot about Diarmaid MacCulloch’s book and BBC series A History of Christianity, or as the book is sometimes titled, Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years, referring to the fact that Christianity evolved out of trends that began a thousand years before it arose and so “its” history really goes back three thousand years, not just two. Today I will tell you what I think of part of the first two episodes of the BBC series, treating that independently from the book. Next month I will tell you about the book.
My Goals & Method for This Review
Though I do of course know a lot about it, I do not know well enough the history of Christianity after its first three hundred years to weigh in on the accuracy of anything MacCulloch says after that point, so I’m really only interested in the first fifteen minutes of episodes one and two, and that’s all I’ll comment on here (this means roughly the history of Christianity up to the Edict of Milan in 313 AD). And for all of that, I will only evaluate statements that are questionable or false; everything else you can assume I believe to be reasonably correct as presented. Which means, his exact wording matters. For example, anytime MacCulloch says something like “it is said that…” or “we have heard the story that…,” such statements I regard not as declarations that what follows is true, but that it describes stories that at some point were indeed told—even if I think those stories are false, I may well agree those stories existed, and that’s all I’ll query when that’s all MacCulloch claims. I also won’t be weighing in on the significance of any of this to any particular sectarian belief system; I’m only interested in what is and is not historically true (or uncertain, or unknown).
When it comes to claiming “the story is” such-and-such, however, I must note a general but minor problem I do have: MacCulloch does usually leave unsaid when any of the stories he thus references first appeared, and that in and of itself can be misleading to an audience, who may think such stories are therefore older than they really are. But unless he actually says when, it does remain the responsibility of any critical viewer not to assume the stories he means are early. A responsible viewer should know that anytime an unsourced “story” is being cited and not actually affirmed as true or even dated, that it should be regarded as an unproven assertion, and can therefore be doubted. After all, if there were evidence establishing a story is actually true, MacCulloch should have said so. Ergo, when he doesn’t, you can safely infer he couldn’t, because there isn’t enough evidence to establish that story is true. It is therefore just something the faithful “say.”
Episode One: “The First Christians”
Around minute 2:30 of Ep. 1 MacCulloch says “the city that first knew Jesus the Christ” was “Jerusalem,” and one might ask how that can be if Jesus had earlier visited polities like Capernaum and Bethsaida (at least, according to the Gospels), but those localities are more accurately described as villages or towns. Even when the Gospels say Jesus toured the “region of Tyre and Sidon” for example, it does not say he entered or was known in Tyre itself, a flourishing city. This is somewhat weird historically—why would a preacher aiming to get his message to the masses never preach in any of the cities he walked right past? The Gospels clearly keep him in the outer districts, talking only to villagers and travelers (though somehow groups of Pharisees and Scribes, even ranking military officers, still managed to always be in these outback rural places). But nevertheless, that’s what the mythology says Jesus did, and one could contrive plausible reasons for it. But for the purposes of fact-checking MacCulloch, there is indeed no evidence Jesus entered any city until his visit to Jerusalem—which, legend has it, eventually got him killed.
Similarly, over minute three MacCulloch summarizes what he calls “the story” of Christian origins that everyone has “heard,” and as such he’s right: what he relates is “the story” we’ve all “heard.” He doesn’t claim any of it is historically true, only that these stories exist and are well known. He then tells us he wants to look for “something else” beyond those “familiar” stories, and at this point he says “you can find clues here in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher” which “is said to have been built” where Jesus was “crucified and buried.” Notice his qualifier: “is said.” He isn’t saying this is true; he is merely relating the historical fact of what is said about this place. Likewise when he says “at its heart” this church contains “what is believed to be” Jesus’s tomb, and “somehow” Christians “became convinced” Jesus rose from the dead here. These uses of “somehow” and “what is believed” and “became convinced” all express a historian’s distance from the legends of faith. He is not acting like a Christian apologist and asserting these things happened or that evidence supports them. He’s just telling us what local and international Christian beliefs are. That’s fair enough.
Is Christianity Unprecedented?
Things only start to get slightly inaccurate when approaching minute five in Ep. 1 MacCulloch says the Christian notion of a god becoming incarnate is “unprecedented.” It actually isn’t. He does carefully use the present tense—speaking of subsequent, not original Christianity. Which is important, because the idea that Jesus was God was not original to the faith; it evolved as a doctrine later (and went through several stages getting there). This is well enough covered by Bart Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (for a scholarly-precise summary and bibliography see my account in Element 10 of Chapter 4, and Element 40 of Chapter 5, in On the Historicity of Jesus, hereafter OHJ). Jesus was originally believed to be a created being, an archangel, albeit the supreme one, tasked with standing in for God on important missions and tasks (like actually creating the universe). But he was from the earliest time believed to have become incarnate—temporarily putting on a body of mortal flesh (Philippians 2:6-11).
However, that divine beings, whether angels or gods, could wear mortal bodies that die was actually a well-established trope in ancient thought. So it cannot be said to have been “unprecedented.” Before Christianity even arose the Jewish theologian Philo was already describing the philosophical mechanics of it (Philo, On the Giants 6-16; cf. OHJ, pp. 187-88). There were many gods in the ancient world who in their myths had mortal bodies that died (and most of them in myth subsequently rose from the dead as well: see Dying-and-Rising Gods). And some began as heavenly immortal beings and then became incarnate mortal men specifically to die and return to heaven. The clearest example is Romulus, who declared in the original “Emmaus”-style narrative that “it was the pleasure of the gods, from whom I came, that I should be with mankind only a short time, and that after” founding an eternal (albeit in this case earthly) Kingdom “I should dwell again in heaven” (Plutarch, Life of Romulus 28.2; cf. OHJ, Chapter 4.1). This is basically the Christian thesis regarding Jesus. The only substantive difference being that Jesus was said to have founded a spiritual Kingdom, and would return later to establish a physical one, which were already Jewish apocalyptic ideas (e.g. Amos 9:11-15 & Psalms of Solomon 17.33-36).
Even the bit about this “god” being an ordinary man was not new. For a significant time Romulus was, like Jesus, a humble peasant (literally a poor sheepherder). Several gods experienced a humble existence in pagan mythology. Hephaestus was a blacksmith, Orpheus a musician, Pollux a boxer; Apollo became a shepherd and Poseidon a bricklayer (see Not the Impossible Faith, pp. 55-62). And counter-cultural peasant wise men hailed as religious heroes, even favored by God, was also a known trope in antiquity (see Element 46 in Chapter five of OHJ); all Jewish prophets and sages, in history and myth, already conformed to that model. And the idea of angels posing on earth as ordinary, humble people, even beggars, was likewise a well known trope—Jewish and Pagan. Likewise of divinely chosen men being persecuted by the powerful and haughty (OHJ, pp. 430-32 and Element 46 of Chapter 5). So there wasn’t anything unique about these aspects of Jesus either.
However, MacCulloch might have meant what was unprecedented was the specific idea that the Jewish God Supreme, Yahweh, should assume a mortal body on earth. That is, so far as I know, true. Judaism was ideologically opposed to such notions as contrary to the holiness of God, who needed angels as intermediaries to interact with men on Earth precisely because it was absolutely (and literally) beneath him to descend there himself (see Element 36 in Chapter five of OHJ). So deviating from that notion was a first. No one ever went that far before. But that idea also didn’t come to Christianity until long after it had abandoned Judaism. So that development isn’t all that peculiar. As soon as Christianity started to look less Jewish and more Pagan, it began assimilating ideas into their theology that a Jewish sect would not have abided, but which were already popular and normal in Pagan society. Like an increasingly elaborate and illogical QAnon conspiracy, the “theology” of Jesus Christ became increasingly bizarre and thus unique over time.
So I don’t think we can ding MacCulloch over this. It’s a slight mislead, but not a serious one, and though it supports a popular apologetic theme of the alleged “uniqueness” of Christianity, I doubt that was intentional. MacCulloch’s book devotes a whole section to the thousand years of developing ideas leading to Christianity and even reckons them as part of Christianity’s history. So he clearly does not believe Christianity is especially unique; its conjunction of attributes may be, but not the individual attributes apart (as even he points out in his own book), which is not apologetically significant because it’s true of every religion—by definition: if any religion were not in some sense unique, it would not be a distinct religion, but some other already-extant religion. “Christianity is unique” is simply a tautology; every religion is unique. Unless you mean “has no precedents for any of its attributes or claims,” in which case Christianity is no more unique than any other religion (I survey this point in detail in Not the Impossible Faith).
Did the Brother of Jesus Run the Church?
Around minute 5:30 MacCulloch says the Church of the Sepulcher is “the starting point” for “another” story that might “overturn your preconceptions about” early Christianity. He means the existence of several Middle Eastern sects of Christianity that maintain chapels or shrines there (Egyptian Coptic, Syrian Orthodox, Ethiopian, and so forth), which have different teachings about the origins of Christianity than the more familiar narratives of Western sects. He doesn’t at this point give any examples of what teachings these “Eastern” churches promulgate that might “overturn” anything, but this only sets up the pretext for the next several minutes, wherein he will linger on some of the “different” things some of these sects claim about their origins.
He starts by saying “it all started” in Jerusalem, where some followers of Jesus formed a movement around their teachings about him. As they were indeed all at that time still Torah-observant Jews, MacCulloch rightly identifies this first community as a “Jewish Christian church.” It is common in the academic field to use “church” to mean any unified community that gathers anywhere; it does not mean a physical building called a church. The first “churches” were just groups of people, who met in private homes or public spaces. The group, not where they met, is what is meant by the word “church” in this context. And in that respect MacCulloch is correct.
But then MacCulloch slides out of history and back into church “tradition” when he says the first church “was led by James, whom the Gospels call the brother of Jesus” (around minute 9). This is factually incorrect. It may be what some sect or other today, or maybe even within a century of Christianity’s origin, “has said,” but there actually is no evidence it’s true, and in fact the earliest evidence we do have indicates it is not. And since MacCulloch presents it as a fact, rather than as something some sect “says,” I have to call him out for this as a mistake; by contrast to when he says the body of this James “is said” to lie below the altar of the Armenian Cathedral of St. James: there he is clearly indicating this is a legend, not an established fact of history. But MacCulloch does not take this care when claiming this James ran the original Jerusalem church. In actual fact no James identified as the brother of Jesus in the Gospels is recorded anywhere in the New Testament as ever leading any church. Like later Christians did, MacCulloch might be confusing this with a different James, the brother of the Apostle John according to the Gospels, not Jesus; or James ben Alphaeus. Or he might be confusing centuries-late legends with evidence-based history.
The head of the first church was, according to Paul and Acts, Peter (or Cephas—both names meaning “Rock,” which is Peter in Greek and Cephas in Aramaic, and since no such name existed in Aramaic this was most likely a nickname he adopted rather than his actual name, but that doesn’t matter for our purposes here: OHJ, p. 524; his real name according to the Gospels and Acts was Simon). Otherwise the New Testament only ever identifies two Apostles named James, neither of them the brother of Jesus: James the son of Zebedee (the brother of John) and James the son of Alphaeus. According to Acts the former James was beheaded by Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:1-3); leaving James ben Alphaeus (also possibly known as Levi: cf. Mark 2:14 & 3:18) as the only James that Acts names who is a prominent (but still subordinate) leader within the church after that (Acts 12:17, Acts 15, Acts 21:17-19; the chronology of Acts contradicts the eyewitness testimony of Paul’s Epistles often enough that we cannot trust it: OHJ, pp. 362-63).
At no point in Acts is either James identified as the brother of Jesus; to the contrary, after listing all twelve Apostles (including those two men named James) Acts says “they all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers” (Acts 1:13-14). So Acts has no knowledge of any brother of Jesus even being an Apostle, much less a leader of any church. Acts also never says any James led the Jerusalem church; he is only depicted as presiding over its affairs when Peter is away. In fact no New Testament book (not even the Epistle of James) identifies any James (or any brother of Jesus) as the leader of any church.
The Gospels depict Jesus’s topmost Disciples as Peter, James and John, the latter brothers, the sons of Zebedee (Mark also claims this James and John were known peculiarly as the Sons of Thunder). According to our earliest Gospel, at key moments Jesus “did not let anyone follow him” except these three men (Mark 5:37; cf. Mark 9:2, Mark 14:33; with the rare exception of Andrew, per Mark 1:29 & 13:3, whom Mark identifies as Peter’s brother: Mark 1:16; Acts 1:13 maintains this order, listing the first Apostles as a group of four: “Peter and John and James and Andrew”). This James and John are the ones who ask Jesus to sit at his right and left in his glory (Mark 10:34-36) at which they get a humility lesson much the same as Peter did (Mark 8:33-35). All of which suggests all three were known as the highest ranking Apostles in the subsequent church.
There is evidence Mark composed his myth to reify the teachings of Paul (see Mark’s Use of Paul’s Epistles), so he may have gotten this idea from Paul. Because Paul singles out what appears to be the same three men—Peter, James, and John—as “the pillars” of the church whom he had to gain sanction from to be accepted as an Apostle (see Galatians 2). By contrast, the James Paul refers to in Galatians 1:18-19 as “the Brother of the Lord” is grammatically in the Greek there declared not an Apostle, and therefore cannot be one of the “pillars” named in the next chapter (OHJ, pp. 589-90). And that’s the case even if you believe this is referring to a biological brother of Jesus. Even in 1 Corinthians 15:7 Paul does not say the James there named an Apostle is the brother of Jesus.
So there is no evidence anywhere in the New Testament that any brother of Jesus ever led any church. It repeatedly says the Jerusalem church was led by Peter; and even the men named James in the New Testament who are depicted as taking leadership roles under Peter are clearly indicated as not being the brother of Jesus. So where did the idea that a “brother of Jesus” ran any church come from? Even Papias had never heard of such a thing. In a now-lost work we know he claimed the Apostle James ben Alphaeus was at some point a bishop, and thus head of some church somewhere, but he doesn’t say Jerusalem, and this is again the wrong James, and even if he ever had been made bishop of Jerusalem, it would only have been after years or even decades of Peter holding that position.
The first time anyone claims James “the Brother of the Lord” had taken charge of “the church” (by which we can assume in context would mean “in Jerusalem”) is in a wildly implausible legend from the late second century repeated by Hegesippus (see OHJ, Chapter 8.8); but even he says this James only succeeded to that position of leadership later. Nor can we trust that this legend he records was originally about a brother of Jesus, rather than that detail being an elaboration by Hegesippus himself, or anyone transmitting the legend to him. Half a century later, relying on Hegesippus, Clement of Alexandria (or so we’re told) recorded that “they” say (we are never told who “they” are) that “Peter and James and John after the ascension of our Savior…strove not after honor, but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem.” And half a century after that Eusebius was relying on these same legends when he wrote in his Church History 2.1.2 that this James “is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem,” but he and Clement may only have meant when the position of bishop was then invented; neither actually says this was the first leader of the church in Jerusalem.
The first time anyone has gotten these myths and legends so garbled as to confusedly think that a James “Brother of the Lord” was “immediately” made the leader of the Jerusalem Church (rather than Peter, the one whom Matthew 16:8 claims Jesus declared would be “the rock” on whom the church would be built) is in Jerome (On Illustrious Men 2), who (like the others) cites no sources for this specific detail, and is writing centuries later, clearly the victim of a long telephone game by that point. So this is most evidently an implausible legend, not a historical fact. The earliest evidence makes clear no brother of Jesus ran the Jerusalem church—ever, much less from the start. Nor did any James. There were other men named James who appear to have taken “a” leadership role there, but not “the” leadership (no source who would know, says any such thing); and they weren’t the brother of Jesus.
MacCulloch should have said the first church “was led by Peter, who was known as Cephas,” or else have said “some say” it was “led by a James whom the Gospels call the brother of Jesus” (or better yet, told us who says that). That would have been more accurate and less misleading.
What Happened to the Jerusalem Church?
Shortly after minute ten MacCulloch says the “Christians quit the city before the siege” of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.; again, stating this as a fact and not a story told by some sect or other. In actual fact we have no knowledge of this. It is an unsourced legend told only by Eusebius (and others subsequently, relying on his account alone) centuries later. There are no actual sources (as in, people who would actually be in a position to know) telling us whether any (much less all) Jerusalem Christians fled before the siege or died in it.
Later legends appear to imagine all the Apostles left to go on missions to distant places, or otherwise dying, well before the war began (e.g. we’re told Peter went on a mission to Rome before the war and died there; James the Just, whether actually the brother of Jesus or not, we’re told was killed in Jerusalem before the war; etc.). Eusebius says all the Apostles had left before then (Church History 3.5.2), and then says the remaining Christians of Jerusalem were advised “by revelation” to flee to Pella in order to evade the war—an event we can be certain is impossible: not only because miraculous revelations like that never really happen, but more crucially because Pella was destroyed in that very same war and only rebuilt later—hardly the place any generous God would have advised them to flee to, nor any place they could have survived. Few scholars believe any of these legends are all that historically reliable. But it remains the case that there is no real source that says any Christians fled the siege, or even survived it.
This is important because MacCulloch then implies Christianity only then left Jerusalem, leading (he says) to the question “could it adapt” to conditions outside Jerusalem; but Christianity already had adapted to conditions outside Jerusalem decades before the war. In fact already in the Epistles of Paul, written a decade or more before the Jewish War even began, shows us a widespread diaspora church well settled across the Roman Empire, spanning Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy. And there is no reason to doubt it had not also settled across North Africa and beyond the Roman Empire altogether. At the very least it must have been thriving in Egypt, if it was already thriving in Greece, though no early sources survive about that (see How To Fabricate History: The Example of Eusebius on Alexandrian Christianity); and Paul mentions having spent an early mission to Arabia, outside the Empire (Galatians 1:16-18).
Regardless, Paul’s letters show us a church that appears hardly at all dependent on its Jerusalem center; Paul indicates the Jerusalem churches did exert some leadership and influence beyond the borders of Judea, but equally indicates Christianity’s foreign mission was already doing quite fine without them (e.g. Paul is the one bringing money from his foreign churches to Jerusalem, not the other way around: see J.D.M. Derrett, “Financial Aspects of the Resurrection,” The Empty Tomb).
This doesn’t seem to be a doctrinally relevant error. It is actually in Christian apologists’ interests to emphasize the opposite: that Christianity was quite successful without any dependence on Jerusalem. Which also happens to be true. So I cannot think why MacCulloch would incorrectly frame the story this way. It is evident he wants to push the angle of how surprising it is that Christianity’s base of power would move to Rome, but that does not require incorrectly implying that Christianity was only located in and dependent on Jerusalem before that city was destroyed. In fact Christianity was already flourishing outside Judea and had been for decades before Jerusalem was left in ruins. That still leaves unpredictable where it would center its leadership afterward; and it would even play into MacCulloch’s next story-move, which is to examine Christianity’s early success outside the Roman Empire in the Kingdom of Edessa (more on that shortly). Instead, he makes this weird claim that it’s surprising that Christianity could flourish without its Jerusalem power-center, even though early Christianity is notable for having a very weak power structure, with highly independent communities under only informal leadership beyond.
Was Paul Actually Killed in Rome?
Also after minute ten MacCulloch says Rome was an unlikely place for Christianity’s center of power to move because “Paul had been killed in Rome” and “so had the Apostle Peter.” This is not so certain to be true. But I’ll be fair to MacCulloch by noting it is still the common assumption of scholars today that Paul was killed in Rome. So I don’t think he can be dinged for saying it matter-of-factly as he here does. It is a rather obscure fact that our earliest source, 1 Clement (traditionally dated to the 90s A.D. but more likely dating, in the opinion of myself and many other scholars, to the 60s A.D.; see OHJ, Chapters 7.6 and 8.5) says Paul had recently died in Spain (“at the end of the Western world”; literally, where “the sun sets”).
And this is the only source regarding Paul’s death that would have been in a position to even know where Paul had died. After this, all we have are late, implausible, unsourced legends about Peter and Paul both being killed in Rome by Nero—legends that may be the output of a telephone game confusing the fact that Clement mentioned the deaths of Peter and Paul in the same passage as somehow meaning they died in the same place, then combining that with a later legend of only Peter’s execution at Rome in the Acts of Peter, an apocryphal and certainly fictional source with no historical credibility (likewise a separate account of Paul’s execution in the Acts of Paul). Historians today really need to reexamine these sources and stop repeating this dubious legend as if it were a known fact. In his book, MacCulloch admits he has done no original research, that all he aims to do is relate what other historians today have reported (“[this] book is self-evidently not a work of primary-source research; rather, it tries to synthesize the current state of historical scholarship across the world,” Christianity, p. 12). And in this case, historians today are still just repeating Christian faith-tradition rather than fact-checking it. But MacCulloch is nevertheless reporting what many historians today say and even think, and he probably does not even know their opinion is dubious.
MacCulloch might actually agree that this belief does not hold up after examination of the actual sources. Look at what Clement of Rome actually said, after he has pointed out that he is now discussing events of his own generation:
Let’s put before our eyes the good Apostles: Peter, who because of an unjust rivalry endured not one, not two, but many burdens, and thus having given his testimony went to the place of glory he deserved; and Paul, who because of rivalry and conflict demonstrated the prize of endurance: seven times in chains, banished, stoned, a messenger in the East and in the West, he received the noble renown of his faith. Having taught the whole world righteousness, having reached the farthest bounds of the West, having witnessed to those in power, so he was removed from the world and went to the holy place, having become the greatest model of endurance.
1 Clement 5:3-6
Notice Paul is here said to have died “at the farthest bounds of the West” after Peter’s death is described. Indeed the sentence is causal, precluding any Easterly return. It is also clear that Clement does not think Peter, his own contemporary and Paul’s, had died in the same city as Paul. Nor does he say Peter (or Paul) died in Rome, the very city Clement lived in and is writing this from. It seems odd that he would not mention that Peter had died there, of all places. And he definitely does not imagine Paul did. Paul died somewhere else, far West of Rome and where Clement himself resided. The farthest West one could go within the Empire was at that time most commonly thought to be Spain’s greatest city, Cadiz (ancient Gades).
Here MacCulloch could not have relied on saying this was only a story, because he is trying to explain an actual historical sequence of events, so he should have simply conceded the uncertainty of whether Paul and Peter really did die in Rome and bitten the bullet on that.
Was Edessa the First Christian Nation?
Around minute 11:30 MacCulloch again asserts as fact (rather than as a mere legend) that King Abgar of the Kingdom of Edessa is known for “adopting Christianity as the kingdom’s official state religion” a hundred years before Constantine; he even insists this is where the long history of Christianity being made a state religion started. But as even Wikipedia puts it, “There is an apocryphal legend that Osroene [a.k.a. Edessa] was the first state to have accepted Christianity as a state religion, but there is not enough evidence to support that claim.” When even Wikipedia outperforms you in accuracy, you are really not doing well as a historian. Again to be fair, MacCulloch is repeating what some historians today do say. But they, too, are conflating a dubious legend with a historical fact, seduced by a popular tradition they neglect to fact-check.
In fact historians who want to believe this legend can’t even agree on which King Abgar this is supposed to mean (there are five kings of Edessa so named at various times across the first three centuries of our era). Most usually it is said to be Abgar the Great (Abgar VIII), around 200 A.D. But the prolific Christian apologist Julius Africanus served under this Abgar (and did describe him as “a holy man”) but fails to mention his being a converted Christian much less making Christianity a state religion (Africanus, Kestoi frg. 7, or 1.20 in Vieillefon’s Les “Cestes” de Julius Africanus). Others have said the Christian heretic Bardaisan converted the subsequent Abgar (Abgar IX), but the evidence for that tale is, well, nonexistent.
Really the “Abgar Legend” is more absurd than that. Eusebius reproduces an obviously forged correspondence between Abgar V and Jesus himself (Church History 1.13). But being a forgery, this is certainly no evidence that that, or any, Abgar even converted to Christianity. Eusebius says these forged letters were part of an equally dubious (and wholly unsourced) tale about Christian Apostles converting that Abgar to belief in Christ. In fact, this being the only evidence Eusebius has even pertaining to Edessa (or any Abgar, ever) is itself evidence against any such tale ever having been true. Otherwise, Eusebius would surely have exploited real evidence of an actual Abgar converting to Christianity had any existed. The more so if he had not only converted, but declared Christianity the state religion of Edessa! Eusebius would not have had to resort to quoting only forged documents featuring only a much earlier Abgar.
The basis for thinking it was a later Abgar who converted is even less impressive. As summarized by James Corke-Webster in “A Man for the Times: Jesus and the Abgar Correspondence in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History,” Harvard Theological Review 110.4 (October 2017):
[A] conversion of Abgar VIII in the later 2nd cent. [is] itself a doubtful proposition. This later conversion [i.e. after the legend of Abgar V’s conversion in the Apostolic era] is largely based on the 3rd cent. Book of the Laws of the Countries [by the Christian heretic Bardaisan]. But both the identification of this text’s Abgar with Abgar VIII (based on the fact that the author seems to speak of a contemporary) and the conversion itself (based on a phrase absent from Eusebius’s own quotation of the passage in his Preparation of the Gospel 6.10.44 and therefore likely a later interpolation) are problematic. The Byzantine chronographer George Syncellus quotes [the Kestoi of] Sextus Julius Africanus as describing his contemporary Abgar VIII as “a holy man,” but that phrase need imply nothing about either a conversion or its date.
So that’s it. We in fact have no actual evidence of any Abgar ever even converting to Christianity, much less declaring it the state religion of Edessa. Just late interpolated passages, and forged documents about a much earlier Abgar. There is also of course no physical evidence whatever to back any version of this tale (no coins, no inscriptions, no architecture or statuary). Some claim cross imagery on some coins of one or another Abgar is indicative, but such imagery was ubiquitous, and there is no evidence the cross was even a Christian symbol at that time. Actual evidence of Edessan Christianity begins to appear only in the 4th century. Though Christianity had probably long been preached there and had its followers before that (the Christians Bardaisan and Africanus were, it does seem, prominent there), these grandiose claims about King and Kingdom do not seem to have any basis in fact. And since Edessa had ceased to be a kingdom (and the Abgarid line had long since ended) before Eusebius, making up tall tales about its once-supposed “Christianity” was a safe play.
This is a strange gaffe for MacCulloch, for I could not find this claim anywhere in his book. So why did he contrive it for the BBC? In his book MacCulloch makes no mention of Christianity being declared the state religion of Edessa, and he has only one single sentence about the alleged Christian faith of Abgar the Great, where after relating the legend of Abgar V he adds merely the speculation that “if the story of the Edessan monarchs’ favour to the Church has any plausible chronological setting, it was probably Abgar VIII ‘the Great’ (177-212), not the first-century Abgar V,” by comparison with the royal house of Adiabene converting to Judaism. But here MacCulloch admits he is only speculating (“if” the Abgar tale has “any plausible” setting then “probably” it would be Agbar VIII). In the BBC series he instead not only declares this a fact, but goes beyond even what he says in the book, which is merely that “maybe” Abgar VIII “favored” Christianity and thus gave it a “place” in Edessa, not that he made it the “official state religion” of Edessa. Even the absurd legends don’t say that. He would have done better to have said for the BBC that the conversion of any king of Edessa was only at best an unverified legend; and not to have made any claim at all about it becoming a state religion there.
How Persecuted Were Western Christians?
MacCulloch’s additional claim (between minutes twelve to fourteen) that all Christian music originated from Syria and Edessa is even more questionable. I have no idea how he or anyone could know that. The only evidence he cites is that some hymns and musical practices come from Ephraem of Edessa in the 4th century, but that’s a non sequitur. That he contributed something does not mean he originated anything. By contrast, the evidence against MacCulloch’s assertion is clear and extensive.
Christians were already singing hymns under the Roman Empire in the early second century, as attested by Pliny the Younger, who reports around 110 A.D. that Christians “were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing a hymn to Christ as to a god,” essent soliti stato die ante lucem convenire, carmenque Christo quasi deo dicere (Pliny, Epistles 10.96). Well before that Paul himself reports Christians were singing hymns in his churches (1 Corinthians 14:26). The New Testament describes Christians as singing hymns several times (Acts 16:25; James 5:13; Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19). A great deal more evidence of this exists, wholly exploding MacCulloch’s assertion: see A. Smith, “First-Century Christian Singing and Its Relationship to Contemporary Jewish Religious Song,” Music & Letters 75.1 (1994) and Valeriy Alikin, “Singing and Music in the Christian Gathering During the First Three Centuries,” The Earliest History of the Christian Gathering (Brill 2010), pp. 215-27. We even have Western Christian musical notation from the 3rd century, long predating Ephraem and a thousand miles from Edessa: see E. J. Wellesz, “The Earliest Example of Christian Hymnody,” The Classical Quarterly 39.1/2 (1945).
This is important because MacCulloch uses this false statement to segue into claiming Christians didn’t sing in the West for fear of being caught and persecuted (starting around minute 13:50). There is exactly no evidence for that; and as I just cited, plenty of evidence to the contrary. Pliny himself reports Christians were singing, and they weren’t turned in for it (he was finding them based on anonymous accusatory lists of names, many of whom weren’t even Christians anymore; and he was prosecuting current Christians for illegal assembly, not singing). And Alikin, for example, finds Ignatius discussing the mechanics of entire Christian choirs—in letters his supposed Roman captors let him write and mail off to his churches! By contrast with MacCulloch’s false narrative, Elesha Coffman notes for Christianity Today that it appears Western Christians avoided using instruments to accompany song only because they were regarded as licentious and immoral, not because Romans would catch them at it, as confirmed by Biblical historian William Woodson in his “History of Instrumental Music” for The Christian Courier. But without instruments the evidence shows Western Christians sang communally in every century before Constantine. There is no evidence it was ever suppressed or avoided.
MacCulloch’s misrepresentation of Christian persecution is perhaps his largest gaffe in this BBC series. A corrective is well in order. They should have had Candida Moss weigh in here, Biblical historian and Professor of Theology now at the University of Birmingham, formerly of Notre Dame. Her book The Myth of Persecution synthesized and extended years of evolving mainstream consensus in the field, that has concluded most of what we popularly think about Christian persecution was, in fact, Christian-fabricated propaganda (Wikipedia offers a decent summary). Persecution was sporadic at best, and only became intensely state sanctioned in the late third century, and then only relatively briefly. As Pliny’s correspondence shows, Christians were rarely found, rarely prosecuted, and then only for crimes unrelated to their religion, and the Emperor Trajan outright told him to leave them alone (unless they flaunted their defiance of political or other laws too egregiously to let it pass).
Christians were more on the receiving end of prejudice than persecution, which only occasionally boiled over into popular or state violence. A closer analogy to how Romans treated them is how the Jews were treated by Christians in the Middle Ages. Neither group “hid” from the authorities. But neither were they immune to occasional violent treatment. A more accurate view than MacCulloch represents to the BBC can even be found in Bruce Eastwood’s summary in “Causes of the Early Persecutions” for History Today 16.8 (1966), which was published literally half a century ago! The field has progressed tremendously since, as evinced in the work of Moss.
In connection with this, MacCulloch descends into a few dubious ancillary statements. Such as when he says (around minute fourteen) that he “suspect[s] that most Romans would have agreed with” successive Roman emperors from Nero on who “hated” Christianity and thus persecuted it for that reason. Though he is only stating his own “suspicion” (which he can’t be wrong about), his suspicion is dubious. Later Christian legends of Nero executing Peter or Paul represented those acts as isolated incidents caused more by political intrigue than any ongoing campaign against the faith—at least according to the anonymous, unsourced, implausible, and probably mythical accounts in the Acts of Peter and Acts of Paul, the only sources Christians seem to have ever had for any of this even happening.
Likewise even if we believe Tacitus wrote the famous account of a Neronian persecution (though there are reasons to doubt it, as I have related under peer review, I won’t assume one must agree: see Chapter 20 in Hitler Homer Bible Christ and my recent article “Blom on the Testimonium Taciteum”), it relates that Nero had to contrive false accusations of arson even to effect his pogrom against Christians, entailing it was a rare and unexpected event, which Tacitus says even the people thought went too far, and that so far as Tacitus relates, was never repeated. That passage does describe Christians as despised popularly, but only in the same sense as Jews were—not only among those selfsame pagans, but among Christian nations in subsequent history. Pliny likewise relates no hatred for Christians, he just found their beliefs to be a revolting superstition that he struggled to find any reason to punish so severely; and the emperor agreed with him that he shouldn’t bother.
On the other hand, contrary to MacCulloch’s careless wording around minute 14:40, Constantine did not banish or abolish pagan gods—there was no “out with” them, but an “inclusion of” the Christian god among them. Constantine continued to allow and even support other religions, and only skewed his favor (legal and financial) toward Christians. Paganism would not be outlawed until half a century later, under Theodosius in the 390s A.D. And even then it took centuries to suppress (see David Frankfurter, Religion in Roman Egypt: Assimilation and Resistance, and Christianity and Ramsay MacMullen, Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries; indeed even after that, medieval campaigns against witchcraft were in part the last vestiges of suppressing paganism in rural districts).
That ends the relevant part of Episode 1. By minute fifteen MacCulloch has reached the era of Constantine. After that, I have nothing more to assess, as it starts to get at that point outside my specialist knowledge.
Episode 2: “Catholicism: The Unpredictable Rise of Rome”
Once again only the first fifteen minutes of the second Episode deals with Christian history before Constantine. But there are again some questionable statements to address. MacCulloch has now dropped the careful “they say” or “the story is” and simply blurts factual assertions that are in fact questionable legends. At about minute 2:50, for example, he says “as a prisoner of the emperor, Paul came to Rome,” and “then spent years under house arrest” there “until the Roman authorities killed him.” But that is a Christian legend originating in the New Testament book of Acts, the only source anyone thereafter can ever cite for the claim. There is no actual evidence it’s true; and some evidence it’s not. And since we know Acts is highly fictive and unreliable (see Chapter 9 of OHJ for a summary of scholars concurring), we can’t really trust it on this.
In his last surviving Epistle, Paul himself says he is going to Rome on his own initiative, not as a prisoner, and that he plans to continue on from Rome to Spain (Romans 15:23-28). Clement of Rome, writing from Rome itself, verifies this fact: Paul made it to Spain, and died there. Clement has no knowledge of Paul coming there as a prisoner, being under house arrest, and being executed recently in Clement’s own city. So our earliest, eyewitness evidence contradicts the late, dubious, unsourced legend in Acts. Why, then, should we go with what Acts says instead? We shouldn’t. To be fair again, a lot of contemporary experts still buy this myth, or haven’t really fact-checked it. So MacCulloch is repeating what “they say,” as in, what many current historians still say. But what they are saying is not based on the evidence, but more in contradiction to it.
After that, between minute three and four, MacCulloch gets around to discussing the catacombs under Rome. There he says “from very early on Christians were drawn here, to the underground catacombs of San Sabastiano, where Paul’s body was hidden from the authorities” as well as “another martyr’s grave, Simon Peter.” He again omits here any hint that this is really just a dubious legend, something people “believe” rather than anything historians have found any actual evidence of. In fact that is all it is. There is no credible source that says Paul’s body had to be hidden—anywhere, much less there. MacCulloch is very unclear just what he is even talking about. Those catacombs have hundreds of sites with the names Peter and Paul on them; none has ever been identified as their grave, or even dated to the first century. The only “graves” of Peter or Paul a location is known for were actually erected in the 4th century, when some bones were transferred into them from elsewhere.
There is no evidence those bones are actually Peter’s or Paul’s, or that any Christians ever actually had custody of the bones of either (this is especially unlikely for Paul if he actually died in Spain, as we’ve seen the better evidence suggests; or for Peter, if he actually died in Jerusalem as some scholars have speculated). The Vatican has more recently claimed that secret carbon dating of “Paul’s” bones (performed without any controls or blinds and never subject to peer review or even published) shows they “date to the first or second century” and that this proves they are Paul’s. But that would be a non sequitur (“this person might have died in the second century, therefore it’s a person who died in the first century” is not exactly sound logic). Their fourth century fabricator could have procured bones of any ancient date to simulate yet another martyr’s relic, a known industry of grift throughout Vatican history, particularly in the fourth century, when countless “miraculously discovered” relics (from the “true cross” to John the Baptist’s head) exploded in popularity. It’s no accident that Peter’s bones were similarly “rediscovered” and enchurched around the same time.
MacCulloch should have been much more earnest about these things being legends at best. Instead he implies we know the actual catacomb location of Peter’s and Paul’s burial. But we don’t; we don’t even know they were ever buried in any catacomb. And even if MacCulloch was pulling a bait-and-switch, and really talking about the Churches that now claim to house the bones of those men, we still don’t have any evidence that that’s true, either. Fortunately, MacCulloch did not delve into any of the more absurd myths about Christians hiding or worshiping “in” catacombs. But by implying we know where Peter and Paul were buried in them, he is still promulgating a part of that mythology: that Christians were using these catacombs even back to the age of Nero. The evidence tells otherwise: Christians did not begin using the catacombs under Rome until the third century; before that they were occupied with pagan and Jewish burials: see Leonard Rutgers et al., “Jewish Inspiration of Christian Catacombs,” Nature 436 (2005).
Finally, around minute 5:30 MacCulloch refers to some archaeological objects without telling us anything we actually need to know about them. First he says a cup-and-fish mosaic at Ostia “probably” indicates a Christian home because…fish, cup, must be Christians! This is a really mind boggling bout of bad logic. Why would Christians spend considerable wealth funding a mosaic depicting a fish swimming in a chalice? I struggle to imagine. Fish symbolism was common in antiquity, as were fishbowls and depictions of them. At any rate, MacCulloch does not tell us what date the mosaic is from or anything else about it by which we could fact-check his claims. But with some sleuthing you’ll find he’s talking about the Domus dei Pesci, which was built in the late third century, and about which there is no scholarly agreement that it was a Christian home.
MacCulloch then says Christianity started “creeping in,” appearing more publicly, worrying pagans, thus leading to persecutions. And at this point he mentions two Christian churches arising at Ostia as examples of this growing presence (and we see on screen a plaque designating one of them, “Basilica Cristiana Reg. III”). But those churches date to after the accession of Constantine. Indeed the one whose plaque we see was only repurposed as a church in the 5th century! These therefore have no bearing on what MacCulloch is talking about. I think this is quite shady; he is pulling a deception on the audience, something historians must never do. Worse than that, after minute six MacCulloch says in this same context that in ancient Rome “you would notice crosses appearing on floors and walls, and you wouldn’t like it.” We’re at the same time shown some vague floor-tile he is clearing dirt from; we are never told what that is, how we know that, how it’s relevant, or what it’s date was. It’s impossible to tell. But there is nothing particularly Christian about it; it contains a vaguely cross-like decoration, but Christians did not invent that. And if this is something he found in one of those “churches” in Ostia he just mentioned, he is looking at an early Medieval floor tile, not an ancient one. So this in no way illustrates what he is saying. This is another unacceptable deception.
Worse still, it simply isn’t the case that Christians used crosses as symbols at this point in history, much less public ones (“on floors and walls” where non-Christians “wouldn’t like it”). That was a 4th century invention: see Everett Ferguson, “When Did the Cross Supplant the Ichthus (Fish) as a Symbol of the Christian Faith?” Christianity Today (2009) and Steven Shisley, “Jesus and the Cross: How the Cross Became Christianity’s Most Popular Symbol” Biblical Archaeology Society (2021). Christians talked about the cross as a concept, made signs of the cross with their hands, very rarely maybe depicted a crucifixion in private art, but did not use it as a public symbol. As Clement of Alexandria tells us in the early third century, “let our seals be either a dove, or a fish, or a ship…or a musical lyre…or a ship’s anchor” (Paedagogus 3). No cross. So MacCulloch is painting an entirely false picture here. And I don’t know why. He could have covered the third century persecutions without all this dishonest and inaccurate nonsense.
Conclusion
I agree with what MacCulloch says around minute 14:40 of Episode 2: “I don’t believe Peter was bishop in Rome,” not least because “you would be hard pressed to find anyone before Pope Damasus who made that claim.” As MacCulloch correctly puts it, “the list of the bishops of Rome” up to about the year 180 “is just that, a list.” And one compiled much later at that; and wholly unsourced. Historians simply do not trust such things. Much like what MacCulloch says of Damasus’s accounts of earlier martyrs: there is “rather more elegance than evidence in what he wrote.” Amen. But as we’ve seen, the same can be said, from time to time, of MacCulloch for the BBC.
The Christian notion of a god becoming incarnate was not “unprecedented,” nor even was the idea of a god sojourning for a time on Earth as a peasant. There is no actual evidence any brother of Jesus ever ran the Christian church. There is no good evidence anyone named James did, either, but if one did, the earliest and most reliable evidence indicates he was not the brother of Jesus. There is no real evidence the Christians quit the city of Jerusalem before the Jewish War. There is no credible evidence Paul died in Rome (there isn’t even any good evidence Peter did). There is no evidence the Kingdom of Edessa ever “adopted Christianity as the kingdom’s official state religion.” Christians did not live in hiding under the Roman Empire, but worshiped (even sang) openly, and were only occasionally subject to pogroms and prejudice, much like they would subsequently treat the Jews. Constantine did not cancel paganism. We don’t know where Peter or Paul were or are buried. Christians didn’t disturb pagans by plastering crosses everywhere. And fishbowls do not indicate a Christian homeowner.





Diarmaid MacCulloch is seen as an authority on the Reformation era (Thomas Cromwell, Cranmer etc) rather than ancient history. The Brits bring out these documentaries on Early Christianity every decade or so. Memorable examples would be Malcolm Muggeridge’s Paul, Envoy Extraordinary (1972) and Bamber Gasgoine’s The Christians (1977). These popular presentations were not composed by experts in the field of early Christianity.
I’ve long noticed that too.
I’m British and I agree with Richard Stokes above. Sadly BBC is not what it was when I grew up. A recent poll suggested it was the least credible news source of the mainstream media channels and this feels like the BBC across the board these days. My opinion is that it is not what the BBC includes, it is what it fails to include. No hard facts and you are left navigating oceans of space between assertions to get to any objectivity. I picked up a coffee table book from a jumble sale about 5 years ago on the History of Christianity- lovely pictures. Much of what you report this chap saying seems to come straight from that- biased and factually unchecked, popularist YEAH JESUS! tome. So what you say re the program does not surprise me, sadly. Great article Richard. Though I do not always comment I do read you posts religiously. Best
In the early 1980s the BBC did a series “In Search of the Historical Jesus” (I was living in Britain in 1984 and saw this), and they opened with a depiction of the Nicene Council being tasked by Constantine to determining what Christianity was going to be, going through all of the various gospels that existed at the time, deciding which ones were going to the canonical ones with all of the rest of them being tossed onto this giant bonfire.
… with the rest of that episode pointing out that there were all of these other gospels like the Gospel of Barnabas that had been recently rediscovered and said very different things from what one might have expected…
At the time, I didn’t know any better, and thus believed for many years thereafter that it was the Nicene Council that had settled on the canon being Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And I’m getting the sense now that even in the 1980s this was known not to be true.
meaning I’m thinking the BBC has always kind of sucked. Or, at least, if there was a point where they started sucking, it was at least 40 years ago.
Wow. That is an astonishingly erroneous account for them to portray.
It is clear there is very little in the way of accurate quality control in the production of religious documentaries. Though I would say this is true everywhere, not just the BBC (the History Channel and the Discovery Channel don’t do any better, nor Time magazine, or anyone else usually).
Richard, you quote:
“Having taught the whole world righteousness, having reached the farthest bounds of the West, having witnessed to those in power, so he was removed from the world and went to the holy place, having become the greatest model of endurance.”
1 CLEMENT 5:3-6
Then you say:
“Notice Paul is here said to have died “at the farthest bounds of the West” after Peter’s death is described.”
But, it doesn’t say he “died” at the farthest bounds of the West, only “reached” them during his travels when he supposedly “taught the whole world righteousness.” This all sounds like an hyperbolic eulogy, not a factual claim as to where Paul died. What am I missing?
The Greek more or less entails a causal or temporal reading.
It’s hard to explain because English does not have the kind of elaborate grammatical rules involved here.
But the sentence in question is a series of nominative aorist participles (completed actions), with conjunctions, ending with an aorist finite verb, in such a fashion that we are being given either a causal or temporal sequence (either amounts to the same sense) leading up to that verbal action:
[after he taught][the whole][world][righteousness][and][after he came][to][the terminus][of the West][and][after he witnessed][to those in power], [in this way/because of this][he was removed][from the world]
Or:
[because he taught][the whole world][righteousness][and][because he came][to][the terminus][of the West][and][because he witnessed to those in power], [in this way][he was removed from the world]
Either way, the sequence is: he taught the whole world, went to the end of it, and witnessed, and in consequence died.
If Clement meant to say Paul went to the ends of the Earth, and then returned to Rome and witnessed and died there, that’s what he would say. But he didn’t. The only location he mentions witnessing at is the ends of the Earth. If his meaning was that Paul witnessed to some other rulers than at the ends of the Earth, he’d have had to say so. Otherwise his sentence entails the causal sequence stated.
This is supported by the travel and witnessing clauses having a parallel chiastic structure: both are completed with epi clauses, and one ends with the participle and the other begins with the participle, separated by the pivot of “and,” i.e. [A][B][and][B][A]. In Greek rhetoric that generally indicates they are connected thoughts, not separate thoughts; as in “he went there and did this.”
That’s enough to settle the matter. But additionally:
(1) Clement is writing from Rome. He would thus add something like “came to his end here” or otherwise indicated Paul actually died where Clement himself lives and preaches. Clement instead writes as if this was a distant event that happened “somewhere.” So if we query where, he has only one locative statement: the ends of the Earth. (Clement also just as conspicuously does not say Peter died in Clement’s city or in the same place as Paul.)
(2) In order for Clement to have meant Paul went to “the ends of the Earth” (which would mean Spain to anyone living in Rome) and then went back to Rome to die, no account of Paul’s death outside this correctly depicts the circumstances of Paul’s death. For example, Acts has him taken in chains straight to Rome, where he is in house arrest for years, and Acts had earlier implied Paul knew he would then die (Acts 20:25); and accordingly all subsequent legends have that be what happens. No one imagined Paul leaving Rome for Spain (How? An acquittal would surely be recorded in Acts!) then coming back only to die then. Which means all legends of Paul’s death must be ahistorical: none of their authors actually knew how or where Paul died (because anyone who knew would include the trip to Spain and back and thus explain why it is Paul survived Rome once but not twice).
Consequently, the far simpler hypothesis is simply what Clement appears to say: Paul went to Spain and died. Otherwise we have to add an elaborate thesis nowhere in evidence, about Paul surviving Rome (no other evidence or reference to this anywhere), traveling to Spain and back (no other evidence or reference to this anywhere), and then being killed by “the authorities” (plural not singular; so no clear implication that it was only Nero’s doing as later legends had it). Ockham’s Razor thus combines with the grammatical-rhetorical point and the historical-contextual point to converge on the same conclusion: Clement had never heard of Paul dying in his own city of Rome.
Very interesting. Thanks for elaborating.
Indeed, I had the same question.
I think even then it is too vague to talk definitively in the way you do. There are different interpretations. Was his death the consequence of witnessing to those in power or reaching the limits of the west. You suggest both but it could seemingly be read as a resulting of challenging authority. To me it reads like someone who doesn’t really know how Paul died which is why it’s vague. He probably just disappeared.
The evidence is clear. I’ve laid it out. And it conclusively proves you wrong.
Case on point:
To the contrary, Clement’s point logically entails not only that he knows how and why (and indeed where) Paul died, but that so do the Corinthians.
Otherwise, he would not confidently assert that they and he know Paul died in Spain (not Rome, but where the sun sets), nor that Paul died “because of envy,” an envy that is suitably similar to the envy Clement is accusing the Corinthian rebels of that he can use the example of Paul to shame them into compliance. So they and he must know how envy led to Paul’s death in Spain. Otherwise his example would have no rhetorical function or impact. We see this in the others listed (the women he mentions, etc., all the examples entail Corinthian knowledge of what he is talking about, explaining why he does not have to elaborate on why these incidents prove analogous to what’s happening at Corinth so as to persuade them).
There are other details entailing special knowledge (Clement knows “the authorities” were the last people Paul “witnessed” to and that his death was the result of his mission and due to someone’s jealousy and envy, and not, e.g., just dying naturally in his sleep or something, i.e. his death is the relevant warning that mentioning him as an example serves in Clement’s rhetoric, not some incidental unrelated thing).
So you’re just wrong. Plainly, obviously, demonstrably wrong.
He doesn’t say that Paul died in the end of the western world. Show me conclusively where. He says he went there, not that he died there. You’ve shown two interpretations of the text using ‘after’ and ‘because’. Those have two very different meanings. You could easily say that after he’d preached at the furthest limit of the West he then witnessed to those in power, or testified before the rulers and then he was killed. The seat of power was Rome, that’s where the rulers were. Is your assumption then that he witnessed to rulers in Spain? Based on what concrete evidence? You seem to have spent a lot of time savaging ancient Christian texts as unreliable and yet sometimes you seem so over-confident when you find something that aligns with your beliefs, despite obvious ambiguities, that you feel able to be so dismissive of others. Yes, maybe there is enough to say Clemens knew how Paul died and he wasn’t specific because the people he was writing to also knew. It may also have been an oral tradition to fill an information vacuum. How can we know with any certainty? It’s also the case that Paul being martyred in Rome became a strong early tradition… so are you saying that despite an important figure like Clement knowing conclusively that Paul died in Spain and perhaps being confident that the people he was ‘writing to’ also knew that so he didn’t need to spell it out, a contrary false tradition that Paul died in Rome arose to become the dominant tradition, quite early on, and no other sources anywhere mention his death in Spain. Occam’s Razor? You can easily read this passage as saying he died in Rome. And your conclusive evidence is that his martyrdom is mentioned in the same sentence as the fact he went west? Just because later accounts of his death in Rome are in accounts with fanciful and obviously fictional elements doesn’t mean that nothing in there is based on reality. There are three accounts of Judas’ death I’ve read, each more unbelievable than the last, things get embellished over time, but there is likely a kernel of historicity in there. People who are confident they are right generally don’t express themselves the way you do, the way you express yourself gives the impression of someone who subconsciously has doubts but doesn’t want to acknowledge them so compensates with aggressive certainty.
You are wrong. The Greek grammar entails he went to the sunset and died, not went there and came back or went somewhere else and died.
Please actually read the Greek. I’ve sent you the analysis multiple times now.
Nothing else you are saying is either correct or relevant.
Let’s keep it simple then and maybe you can explain one point to me.
Clement believed Paul died in Spain and was certain of it and didn’t need to clarify this to the church in Corinth, who knew Paul intimately and must also have believed it. Two of the most influential and powerful churches in early Christianity.
How is it then that this knowledge disappears and as far as I can tell no other early Christian writing confirms it? Instead a false tradition of Paul dying in Rome develops in the 2nd century within decades of 1 Clement and becomes the mainstream narrative in both Rome and Corinth. How? Why?
There are people who have interpreted the passage differently and concluded that it either refers to Paul dying in Rome or at least doesn’t provide ‘concrete evidence’ of an alternative belief held by Clement that Paul died in Spain. For me those passages look like a list of achievements and events ‘he suffered this, he did that’ that are not pointing to a location for Paul’s death, ‘this leads to that’, they’re not all linked. He was imprisoned multiple times, whipped and stoned. That is not sequential and for me speaks to the literary style of the passage.
Indeed, they knew he went to Spain and word got back that he died there and because of envy somehow (which most likely means fellow or competing Christians ratted him out or framed him for something; but whatever it was, they obviously knew what it was, that’s why Clement can reference it without giving details: he knows they will be cowed by the example).
Because Christianity almost died out at the turn of the century (evidence in Switch and Eusebius and my survey of examples in chapter eight of OHJ), and nothing was preserved into the second century (and we have no documents from the first century that would mention it).
I already mention this here in the article you are commenting on.
Because Christians routinely filled gaps in their knowledge with wild myths (none of the myths of Paul’s death in Rome have any plausibility as history; whereas Clement is a contemporary and thus clearly a real source, and corroborates not a single thing from those legends, whereas those legends can easily be spun from misreading Clement).
All Christian apologists or scholars relying on the conclusions and opinions of Christian apologists. This is the problem with biblical studies as a field: It All Falls Apart When You Check.
This is why you can’t used fallacies of Argument to Authority. Opinions are worthless. Only evidence matters. So when you ask them for the evidence of their convictions, they can provide none, or what they provide is fallacious or false (and you can confirm that yourself). By contrast, I am telling you what the evidence actually is, and what follows from that evidence without fallacy. You have to judge which is more likely going to be correct.
It’s a series of causal participles in the aorist (with the causal houtôs even). In Greek, that means causal sequence, not just a random list. It is also in chiasm, which emphasizes that where he died is indeed a point of the sentence. All this is explained in the link I keep sending you to but you evidently refuse to read.
Moreover, the reason for Clement mentioning this example is to give an example of someone getting killed because of envy (that’s the whole wider list and the rhetorical point of the list). It therefore cannot just be a random fact that Paul died. Clement is reminding the Christians of how envy led to his death. That entails he died where his story ends: in Spain.
If Clement meant Paul died in Rome, he would surely say that (“then he returned to Rome and…” etc.), as otherwise, that is not what the Greek says. Moreover, it’s extremely weird that Clement never mentions Paul getting killed in his own city, as that prove his first-hand knowledge, emphasize his rhetorical point, and be odd to leave out.
Clement also does not say Peter died in Rome. Or that they died in the same place. These are all the fallacy of mapping wildly implausible legends a century later onto Clement’s words, which cannot sustain those fables. But trying to force them to is a Christian dogma.
Remember, the authentic Paul himself told us he was going to Spain after his stop in Rome (where he was going voluntarily, not “in chains”). And Clement is a contemporary. So he knows Paul went to Rome and then Spain. If Paul had returned to Rome, that would have to be a part of Paul’s accomplishments and the causal sequence of his death.
I’ve read your links, or skimmed them as much as I can, and your theories are interesting but they do come across like breathless, flat-earthy contrarianism sometimes.
I don’t speak Greek, all I can go on is other expert opinions of which most disagree with your interpretation. The context of how it reads does not appear to me to be what you describe. Your chiastic argument seems weak because the two inner phrases do not relate convincingly and in any case don’t need to have the consequence you suggest.
The claim that Christianity died out is again, not supported by most scholars or the evidence. You seem to have fixed the evidence around the theory there in my opinion.
The theory that Christ was myth and then a human invented later is interesting but… Occam’s Razor again, what’s more likely?
A charismatic but tragic, historical figure inspired a movement that mythologised him as time went on… or a mythological invention that inspired a movement to make up a charismatic and tragi-triumphant historical figure?
Why would the historical figure even be necessary to invent? It feels more like ‘cope’, to deal with the loss of a guru by inventing a mythology which keeps the dream alive, leading to all sorts of fan fiction and theological nonsense (like Barnabas 10:8).
As it made contact with other cultures they added their own flavour to it. If you look at the Roman Catholic church it is certainly polytheism-adjacent in my opinion, not a million miles away from Roman polytheism really at a casual glance. Creating a Goddess in Mary (with the absurd title of mother of God), regular prayers to angels and saints. We have a patron saint for travel, the Romans had a patron God of travel as did the Greeks and all the other things. It’s basically paganised.
Anyway, it’s an interesting idea but honestly I think the existence of an historical Jesus that became mythologised is more likely.
The envy part is interesting, it does imply that they were betrayed by fellow Christians but not necessarily. There are a number of consequences of envy listed for Peter and Paul that were supposedly carried out by Romans or Jews so that term might be being used broadly, in which case there might even be an assumption of cause of death without actual knowledge.
But I agree that it most likely means that Clement knows how Peter and Paul died but I’m afraid your argument for Paul dying in Spain, based on your seemingly unique ‘trust me bro’ translation of Greek, is not convincing. You argue that if he came back from Spain to Rome that would have to be mentioned. Only if the list works as you describe and even then the bit about witnessing to power is arguably not located and could plausibly refer to power in Rome. I’m not intending to learn Greek so we’re going to have to leave it there. I don’t buy it.
You’re obviously an intelligent person with an imaginative mind which means you can find interesting ways to fit pieces together but that doesn’t mean you have the right picture.
It comes across like you have decided that Christianity is a load of bunk and you are going to prove it, which is a scholarly approach more prone to bias and faulty lines of enquiry.
Christianity has persisted for 2000 years, Judaism for 3000, Egyptian religion before it for 3000 years. The fact is, like successful genes, there is something about religion that works for humanity, enough for it to keep being passed down to the next generation.
Atheists seem to think that it’s all bunk that has been holding humanity back and that by disproving a theory of God you can prove God doesn’t exist. All you can do is prove that a theory is wrong, matters of existence, consciousness and so on are still too mysterious to come to any firm conclusions. Atheism always risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It also tends to end up mimicking religion anyway, just like Roman Gods were replaced with Christian saints. Some polemicists have a bit of a messianic guru vibe too ‘No, I’m the truth the way and the life” follow me.
The more interesting question to me is what is it about religion that works…is monotheism more effective, appealing and enduring than polytheism and why…how do we use this to create a more successful society and of course understanding if there is some moral or spiritual truth to the universe or consciousness or whatever weirdness we’re dealing with when it comes to life.
I can’t help you if you just go on ignoring all the evidence I present.
Everyone else will consult the presented evidence. So there’s nothing more to say here.
There are people who base their beliefs on the evidence, and people who don’t. You’ve chosen your lane. The rest of us have chosen ours.
Who is ignoring the evidence Carrier?….what unsufferable arrogance…
You have an interpretation of the evidence, that’s all, same as I do. Yes you my disagree with my interpretation and the interpretation of others, but to suggest that you base your beliefs on ‘evidence’ and people who disagree with you don’t is delusional.
It shows a lack of intellectual rigour that undermines trust in the things you claim.
I have not ignored your ‘evidence’ (really just an interpretation or opinion), I have considered it and rejected it. I’ve made that point several times and you have in turn ignored that and instead chosen to believe that I have ignored your ‘evidence’. It’s almost Freudian.
You would seemingly prefer to believe that I have ignored your ‘evidence’ as opposed to what the actual evidence suggests, which is that I have considered your ‘evidence’ and rejected it. Rightly or wrongly.
So you have ignored the evidence, seemingly in denial that someone could read your work and disagree with it based on reasoning. I might be wrong but what I am not guilty of is ignoring your ‘evidence’.
The fact you have repeatedly accused me of it speaks volumes about how you approach academic study.
Yes people reading these things will draw their own conclusions.
You.
As I just said.
And as any third party observer of this exchange can tell.
Just reacting to that with insults and bluster and table-thumping only advertises the fact further.
It also now demonstrates you never had a serious or rational point to make here, but had a merely emotional agenda all along.
Like I said, this is almost Freudian projection. I’ve read your articles, arguments and viewpoints on this issue. They’re not always easy to read, not necessarily due to the complexity of the argument although you do like to use highbrow language wherever possible, but because there is a breathless, aggressive quality to it and inevitably at some point you use insulting and derogatory language about someone you disagree with. You accuse them of lying or being stupid (which is why I feel comfortable using some direct language towards you although I have accused you of neither of those things).
When I read it I start to pull away for all sorts of reasons, it’s distasteful but it also betrays a mindset that is not best suited to the pursuit of truth in any sense. That requires humility being able to accept the possibility that one is wrong.
The fact you can identify insults and bluster and table-thumping when it’s directed at you but don’t seem to appreciate that your articles often feature the same thing directed at others shows either a lack of self-awareness or game-playing.
You are insulting me by continuously claiming I ignored the evidence. Is this a deliberate tactic? Like faith-baiting, you want to incite a reaction, perhaps try to entrench others in their opinions, be able to claim that the other side is reacting emotionally, helping to distract from weaknesses in your own arguments?
I don’t need to go point by point when it comes to your ‘evidence’. I have presented counter-arguments which would be impossible had I ignored it. You can argue I haven’t understood it, but not that I have ignored it.
I am so far not convinced by your ‘evidence’, which amounts to conjecture since nothing is provable and the sources are ancient, incomplete and unreliable. They are not worthy of the certainty and aggression with which you present your conclusions.
Who cares if Paul died in Spain or Rome? For centuries the church understood Matthew to be the first gospel, now it accepts it is more likely Mark. They did so without much wailing and gnashing of teeth and the location of the death of Paul is less significant than that. If it were as obvious as you seem to believe then it would have been subject to the same scholarship and review as Markan priority, but it wasn’t.
It isn’t obvious.
The other questions around whether the historical Jesus was a myth are actually more compelling to me, but I still find it more likely that some historical figure existed but that much of the early literature about him is embellished and exaggerated.
That’s not an emotional position, that just seems to be the more likely based on the sources we have available.
Most Christians I know are not bogged down by theology. If you ask them directly they may feel like they have to say that they believe the creation myth for example, but it doesn’t play any role in their lives. I know plenty of successful and rational people, engineers and so on, who believe that myth and I would rather go for a drink with them than you, even if you turn out to be right about all of it.
They are polite, humble and considerate, they are Christians because they believe in certain values and find that a life of faith and worship seem to be the best way to maintain them.
Maybe your kind of atheist thinks those things are a weakness encouraged by religion (I think Greek philosophers used to consider excessive humilty unvirtuous, although there’s a difference between humility and self-deprecation) and therefore not required of people like you that have transcended it. Or maybe you are all too lazy to put in the effort it requires to exhibit those qualities, so you would rather undermine religion in an effort to not feel guilty about it.
Still no argument here. No thesis. No evidence presented. No address of any evidence presented. Just a rambling wordwall of emotional vomit.
You’re obviously spent here. You’ve nothing left to add.
I watched a couple of episodes on Mythvision and the way you present yourself on there is different to the blog. I hope he is on your xmas card list because he will sell you a lot more books to non-devotees than this blog will.
I do have a(nother) thesis. We have a historical Carrier and a mythical Carrier. The first appears on the Mythvision podcast where face to face and in public he is trying very hard and pretty much succeeding in appearing to be a considerate academic.
Then we have the mythical blogger Carrier who is a personal fantasy of a transcendant, imperiously intelligent ubermensch that crushes unbelievers underfoot…a kind of inner Yahweh.
Iin my opinion you shouldn’t blog. Or at least have someone edit them before publishing.
The interviewer bless him, actually tried to give you a couple of opportunities to repent of the way you express yourself but you either didn’t spot them or ignored them.
Like I said, your general theory is compelling to me, but I’m not there.
I always believed that Jesus was probably born out of wedlock, we have no mention of the virgin birth in Mark (or by Paul) and mention of his brothers and sisters. There’s a comment in John that may indicate there were stories of him being born out of wedlock and Jewish tradition that claims he was.
So that seemed like the reason for the virgin birth story to me and then the tying up in knots trying to theologise it.
The virgin birth being made up first seems less likely. Obviously you would need Joseph to not have slept with Mary if you wanted the saviour to have been born a virgin, then you have to have an adoption into the line of David somehow. But if it’s a cosmic sperm, would you need Joseph and brothers and sisters? Wouldn’t it be more powerful to have him as an only child?
I know modern Christians who prefer to see him that way, they react shocked when you say he had brothers and sisters, it lessens him in their eyes. The catholic church doen’t really seem to think you need Joseph (or siblings), they don’t really know what to do with him, he might as well not have existed. He’s almost an embarrasment.
If Paul uses a different word for Jesus’ birth then he obviously considered Jesus to be special, not like others, so he could be using a different word to mark him out and elevate him, rather than demeaning him by using the same word for mere mortals.
There is a problem as well with you implying early church writers made various errors and/or misunderstood Greek. They were nearly all high-level Greek speakers, is it credible that with all the texts they had access to and oral traditions that they somehow misunderstood Paul dying in Spain? Nobody realised it until you? Or other examples you claim. They would have understood context and usage far better than you.
James is mentioned in other Christian writings, in Mark’s gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, various letters. Is there a difference between how he introduces ‘the brother’ as opposed to ‘a brother’ in other fictive contexts? If Paul was the source of the existence of James the brother of Jesus due to misunderstanding is that really credible given they pretty much all had a high literary level of Greek?
In any case the fact that James was the brother of Jesus may have been so well known that he didn’t have to use the ‘brothers in the flesh’ term. That may have been a particular term for Jews to emphasise a point, rather than the general way he talks about biological brothers. Some of his use of Greek might simply be poetic to emphasise Jesus’ uniqueness.
To counter my argument that the memory of Paul’s death would have died out because Christianity died out at the end of the 1st century you link as proof to an article that Eusebius embellished Christian history in Alexandria. That’s not evidence that Christianity almost died out. A weak pillar.
Then you have the letter of Pliny, that you use as evidence, where a Roman senator who is executing Christians says he keeps meeting Christians who have left the faith and apparently they’re all abandoning their faith and ‘Christian, me, no way! Never heard of them’. Yeah, you don’t say.
I read that letter, it doesn’t read to me like evidence of Christianity ‘dying out’, he mentions it spreading like contagion in his particular province. So I call that a weak pillar. We have writings dated to the end of the 1st century right through the 2nd century that belie that idea.
Paul mentions meeting eye witnesses of Jesus, Clement, Papias did, . Why is that not a pillar of historicity? If Paul existed and he mentions meeting Jesus’ contemporaries…?
He mentions a seemingly earthly saying that it’s better to give than receive that he writes in a way that seems like everyone knew. If it was a direct revelation to him then others likely wouldn’t know it so why didn’t he preface it by saying so?
Paul comes across as having a chip on his shoulder about the fact he never met Jesus, he is sniffy about John, Peter and James as ‘so-called great leaders’ he only meets them because God told him to, not because of anything to do with them. So he will always emphasise the risen Christ because that is his whole authority and the rest of ours obviously as well since we could never meet him in the flesh.
Talking about the historical Jesus just undermines his authority to his way of thinking. It has very little relevance to those currently living in his opinion. There might be cognitive dissonance going on too, leading to a more and more esoteric theology distancing from the ugly human tragedy, to a gentile audience more excited by divine stories. A transition from a Jewish to a Greco-Roman religion would be likely to adopt more divine aspects, to Jews I suspect they would view the mythical Jesus as idolatry.
If historicity was decided after the fact, why weren’t the fantastical elements in Mark. No virgin birth, no real resurrection story. A mother who thinks her son has gone mad despite later gospels claiming an archangel visited her. Doesn’t that speak to historicity as well? Why isn’t there more myth in Mark?
This is almost the weirdest crank wordwall I’ve ever gotten on my blog.
And once again, it never once mentions or addresses any of the relevant evidence here. You just changed the subject and moved the goalposts and flooded the zone with undefended assertions and omitted details and poorly informed opinions presented as facts, as if to distract.
Which, I guess, fits. It’s what you’ve been doing ever since you rolled off the rails of this conversation several exchanges ago already.
Again I present my case.
The Eusebius article isn’t evidence Christianity nearly died out at the end of the 1st century. What can be your response? ‘Oh yes it is’. You can’t, once challenged, point to anything in that article that backs up that assertion because it isn’t there. The fact that you can’t trust Eusebius just means you can’t trust Eusebius, how can it therefore prove anything else? So you deflect by claiming I’ve ignored things.
Same with the Pliny article. There’s no real comeback other than these deflecting responses.
So you have not demonstrated convincingly that the information around Paul’s death, which seemed to have been common knowledge to at least two major churches would have died out to such an extent a different narrative emerged a few generations later.
We know that the letters of Clement were circulating in that early period, and yet nobody in the Greek speaking early church or since seems to have come to the same conclusion when it comes to your translation and come up with a story about Paul being eaten by lions in Spain for example. As far as we know.
You have no answer, you have been deflecting ever since.
You were very dismissive and definite about your James argument on here, on YouTube you were much more qualified, so it hardly matters. You have no firm evidence.
There are questions I have about how there seems to be chronological trend in the gospels from less to more myth, from messiah to God, but you won’t engage anyway. I’ll follow the debate with interest.
Articles aren’t evidence Christianity “nearly died out at the end of the 1st century.” The evidence in the articles is the evidence of that. And I cited two articles and a chapter in a peer reviewed study. You ignored all the evidence in all three places, and just gainsaid them with no discussion of the evidence or why it leads to the conclusion. Which is the behavior of a crank.
We have no evidence of anyone in the two average lifetimes since Clement write discussing what they thought Clement meant. So you cannot arrive at conclusions about that. Everything after that either doesn’t even know the letter exists, or interprets it in light of recently fabricated legends and necessary dogmas. I show how the telephone game led from what Clement said to what the Vatican mistook or needed him to have said instead—that’s how legends arose that he meant both Peter and Paul died in Rome when in fact that is exactly the opposite of what he said. It’s nobvious they made all that up. And it’s obvious how they made it up from material in Clement. And historians have thoroughly documented that Christians make up a lot (almost all Christian historical literature is fabrication or forgery: almost all Gospels, Acts, and Epistles circulating in the first four centuries).
Meanwhile, the Greek says what the Greek says. There is no way to cite fabricators and dogmatists in another century to argue that Clement wrote a different thing than he did, or that Greek grammar worked differently when he wrote than for anyone else in the first century.
In other words, you can’t just ignore evidence, and cite less reliable evidence against more reliable evidence. That’s the behavior of a crank, not a responsible historian.
So you have to actually confront the evidence. Not dismiss it as if it doesn’t exist and requires no response, and certainly not side with unreliable liars fabricating what everyone knows to be false legends as somehow the only ones telling us the truth. You know better.
“Articles aren’t evidence Christianity “nearly died out at the end of the 1st century.” The evidence in the articles is the evidence of that”
Surely you understand that as a shorthand that’s what I meant?
I read the article on Eusebius and unless there was some specific source in the article that had the answer I was looking for (in which case why didn’t you link to that) what I read was an article about Eusebius being an unreliable propagandist, focused on the history of church in Alexandria. What am I missing?
I read it and accept the point of view expressed in that article, it makes sense and considering I’ve long believed much of the Old and New Testament itself to be propaganda, it wasn’t even controversial to me. Makes sense. But I don’t see how it tells me about the apparent near death of Christianity at the end of the 1st century. What am I missing?
So I read the Switch article and pulled out the bit about Pliny because that seems to address the point “Christianity appears to have experienced a first century bottleneck of failure and subsequent revival”.
So I read that, you seem to be stretching. Straight off the bat we know there are Christians in this particular region, possibly backing up 1 Peter, but it is not the location of any of the major churches so we have to be cautious about extrapolating to the whole of Christianity even if there is a question as to why Pliny seemingly hadn’t come across them earlier.
We know some of those Christians are prepared to die for their faith which says something about the strength of belief.
After some time, as is usual in such examinations, the crime spread itself and many more cases came before me
How much time?
Did it ‘spread itself’ or is Pliny just becoming aware of more of them? More likely the latter but we are talking about a spread here not a dying out. Governments usually catch on to something much later than it actually started.
“These denied that they were Christians now, or ever had been”. You don’t say. That tells us nothing about anything because it is a statement made on pain of execution.
Then we have a passage which I won’t paste about how it is already spreading like a contagion, you’ve read it. So as far as Pliny is aware, with the limits of his knowledge, a sect has been spreading like contagion since he first started executing them ‘some time ago’. From what? From nearly died out?
He then claims that the temples were almost forsaken. What is his source for that? Is it the recanting Christians? That’s my suspicion because he expresses ignorance at the beginning. If there are temples that are public knowledge then the Christians would have been public knowledge. I think its likely the temples were secret and he found out about them from recanters downplaying the Christian community.
How likely is it that from a nearly died out religion, people start hearing that Pliny is executing adherents and want to sign up in ever increasing numbers?
In less than 3 and a half lifetimes it was the official religion of Rome, a feat so incredible it seems like a myth. Can you even fathom what conviction and courage it would have taken to achieve that? The critical mass of believers that would have to be reached. It’s almost a reason to believe if it can give you the tools to take over an empire.
But you say it nearly died out if Pliny hadn’t started executing them? I doubt it. From the 1st to 2nd century Christianity survived, the central ideas expressed in the 1st century survived to the 2nd.
So, anyway, in a somewhat remote region of the Christian world we know that Christians existed and are in some cases prepared to die for their faith and that by 112, some years after the first executions, he is becoming aware of more of them. The rest is conjecture and you have squeezed an awful lot of juice out of that to make it a pillar of your switch theory.
Yes it does give the impression that Christianity was not as prominent at that time as later propagandists suggest, but not that it nearly died out.
All the dates are contested but there does seem to be writings that convention suggests were composed towards the end of the 1st century or the beginning of the 2nd. Writings are like mushrooms, they’re the fruiting bodies of a much wider underlying mycellium of culture and oral history.
You have a 40 year period between 70-80ish AD to 112 AD when you claim Christianity nearly died out and history was lost even though it was still active in Turkey?
We have no evidence of anyone in the two average lifetimes since Clement write discussing what they thought Clement meant. So you cannot arrive at conclusions about that.
My common sense response to that would be that they didn’t need to ‘understand what it meant’ and write an analysis of it in the same way that I don’t normally need to a textual analysis to understand what an English speaker meant writing 40 or 80 years ago. They knew what it meant, they attest to its existence. They were Greek speakers who would have understood context and usage better than anyone today and had access to oral history and other texts.
By around the middle of the 2nd century we have a popular tradition that Paul died in Rome. Irenaeus condemns the Acts of Paul but doesn’t contest the Roman death (It’s interesting that there is an ambiguity in the word used to describe Paul’s death by Irenaues that to my mind echoes the ambiguity in Clement).
But, anyway, no Koine Greek speakers and writers understood Clement or were brave enough to question the Roman location even though the Acts of Paul were condemned as a forgery? Seems odd to me.
I think you can say there is ambiguity about where he died before you can say Paul definitely died in Spain….and more likely Rome than Spain in my opinion.
As for liars and fabricators and knowing better, I’m not a historian. I’m a traffic surveyor who is interested in early Christian history for my own spiritual and intellectual reasons, as well as to try and find some solid arguments against what I think is unhelpful philosophy and thinking in a born again family member and other Christian friends.
This is another word wall but I was speaking to a Christian lady a while ago who had clearly internalised the guilt of Eve in the garden of Eden. I felt a real sadness about that and told her I think it’s time to give Eve a break.
But anyway we are talking about 2000 years of academia and reading of Clement, including by people who have no skin in the game, who have not interpreted Clement the way you have. That’s just how it is. I don’t think you can say with more than 50% certainty that Paul died in Spain.
I think if we take Mark to be the recollections of Peter according to someone who claims to have talked to eye-witnesses then it’s puzzling that there isn’t more myth in it right? It starts when you’d expect it to start, when Peter met Jesus and finishes with an empty tomb cliffhanger, all written in crude Greek. Why so cautious in such an early gospel if the key pillar of theology was always the high Christology stuff? With all that stuff tacked on in later gospels.
Ever-increasing feverish wordwalls when you have no actual response to real facts and logic is the signature behavior of a crank.
You again ignored almost all the evidence (the vocabulary, grammar, context, timeline), and of what you even mentioned, you simply gainsaid rather than disproved. Which means the cited articles and study already refute your comment, requiring no further reply.
Padded word count does not make an argument stronger. It conceals the absence of an argument.
So all I have to do is refer people back to the actual evidence: outlined in the article here, which referenced further demonstrations of its every point. I then referenced more recent scholarship further establishing it. And all re-explained over and over again in this thread. And continually ignored.
There isn’t any reason to continue conversing with a crank at this point.
Padded word count does not make an argument stronger. It conceals the absence of an argument.
Pot and kettle I think, your posts are famously wordy. You’re just deflecting in a humorously Freudian way.
That most of those who could be rousted up as Christians had already left the religion, verifies the conclusion: people were losing interest; membership was scarce and dwindling.
The fact you straight-facedly use the testimony of recanting Christians facing execution as serious evidence of an already weak argument is laughable. That’s certainly crank-y.
I show how the telephone game led from what Clement said to what the Vatican mistook or needed him to have said instead…
No you don’t. You just assert it, weakly with the word may.
legends that may be the output of a telephone game confusing the fact…”
As for the Greek translation, you already point out that the words used are ambiguous and have at least two meanings. Your explanation that the traditional knowledge must have died out with the near death of Christianity seems to be based on the testimony of recanting Christians facing execution and the fact Eusebius made stuff up.
Still no reference to any of the actual facts and logic of the matter. And more denialism, claiming I didn’t present tons of facts when I did. And more ignoring everything I said even against the things you keep repeating.
So there remains no need to keep repeating myself. You lost the debate. Your ego can’t handle that. So now you are just trying to bluster your way into having the last word with shallow and repetitive insults and blurps.
Everyone else knows where the data is.
You can contrast this effort with the BBC’s “The Bible’s Buried Secrets”; (2011); presented by Professor Francesca Stavrakopoulou. A far better documentary series altogether.
I gave up on telly decades ago; 95% dross and I spent far too much time shouting at the screen. 🙂 Most of it is far too light-weight and dumbed down. People don’t have the attention span? Give me strength! There is nothing to KEEP your attention.
I’d like to see what you could do with a couple of hours of prime time telly. It’d remind them what decent viewing figures look like. I don’t expect this thing would have them talking heatedly down the pub at all.
BBC’s The Lost Gospels presented by Anglican
Peter Owen-Jones is a good’un too.
It’s well atmospheric with obligatory censer shots in some Jerusalem chapel, Bart Ehrman at Naj’ Hammadē caves – and to say nothing of BBC production values. What’s not to like?!
It’s a pity Dr Carrier doesn’t do more tele –
as he did ere eg ‘Faith Under Fire’ programme.
‘Jesus From Outer Space’ really ought to be dramatised for bigger audience reach.
Dr. Carrier I just finished listening to your zoom debate with C Jay Cox on the historicity of Jesus from September 2020 (4 months ago).
In that debate there was a discussion about the possibility of another debate (blog format) where you debate the dating of the Gospels. What ever came of that?
Nothing yet. Possibly we’ll touch base again about it in future.
I haven’t read all of this yet, but I watched these awhile back and just remember thinking the whole time, “Carrier wouldn’t like this.” He certainly seemed to take a lot of tradition as truth. Now I will read your review and see if I was right.
As always, such an educational article!
What history-of-ancient-Christianity documentaries do you recommend?
Generally, none. There is no such thing as info-television worth watching.
And for off-tv stuff, there is no worthwhile example comparably broad in subject. The only thing I might recommend is very specialized in its topic: a survey of “what you usually aren’t told” in the subject of the origins of Christianity, which is pretty much correct (it has some speculations that maybe aren’t, but they are correctly presented as speculations): Marketing the Messiah.
By following a series of links beginning in your February 2014 article on the Shroud, I arrived at a question relevant to the current article: Do you recommend A New History of Early Christianity by Charles Freeman?
I haven’t read that so I can’t say. I generally don’t have time to read 101, so unless someone pays me to review it, I won’t be reviewing it (hence my MacCulloch project was a paid contract; I could not justify bothering with it otherwise).
I think you’re a little too lenient on MacCulloch when “he ‘suspect[s] that most Romans would have agreed with’ successive Roman emperors from Nero on who ‘hated’ Christianity”.
His suspicion is that “most Romans would have agreed” – but he seems to claim as fact that “successive Roman emperors from Nero on … ‘hated’ Christianity and thus persecuted it for that reason”, which seems somewhat overstated.
Thoughts?
Yes. Note some of those words are mine, not his. His own language is admittedly vague. He does not explicitly say “every” Roman Emperor, just emperors from Nero on, and he never names any, so we are left uncertain what he means (which emperors? when?). He also never really explains what he means by “hate” or how that would be visible in actions. So whether you think he is overstating depends on what you take his vague and imprecise words to mean.
I would grant that he overstates, not only because he is giving the impression of a more visceral or persistent hatred than was the case (among the people as well as even hostile emperors), but even simply on the grounds that he never qualifies this with factual counter-cases like Trajan’s insistence that his officials leave Christians alone, and the Imperial Doctor Galen’s exasperated statements about Christians being gullible superstitious nuts but not a threat to society he is worried about or anything like that, or even the legend of Domitian, who supposedly interrogated the family of Jesus and concluded they were harmless and let them go (this almost certainly is a fake story that originated regarding messianic Jews that had no connection to Christianity, but even if one buys the mythology that hyped it as an encounter with Christians, the encounter does not exhibit imperial hatred but imperial amusement and disinterest).
Dr, Carrier
Obviously you’re of the opinion that Jesus is (most likely) a fictional person. And I suspect that you’re of the opinion that most all of the people mentioned in the Bible are fictional and far outnumber the historical.
Having said that aside from Peter and Paul what other people mentioned in the Bible would you regard as actual historical figures?
If that list is too long then perhaps a list of those historical figures that are central to Christianity (it’s origin and movement).
It is definitely too long a list. It’s also not clear cut. There are many figures whose historicity is simply unknown (e.g. David is still disputed; I think on balance there was a warlord of such name at some point, but almost nothing said of him in the Bible is true, but that’s shaky; the evidence for Elijah is even less, but also it is unclear if that means he didn’t exist or not). And many whose historicity is known but incidental to Christianity (Pilate, Caiaphas, John the Baptist, Claudius Lysias, Porcius Festus, etc.). I also don’t know what you think is “central” to Christianity.
So you should really just be specific: whose historicity are you concerned about and why?
Hello Richard
I have a question about pre-teen marriage under christian governance.
christian apologists will say that 93 percent of girls under christian governance married past 12 years of age, is there any evidence for this?
How do you understand the data by Ronald Stark in the “the rise of christianity” ?

How about for the first 300 years of christianity ? would they have allowed marriage of pre-teen girls ?
It is kind of disingenuous to praise Christians for still allowing 7% of all marriages to be under-13. That really isn’t changing anything, morally speaking. The law remained as always that the minimum age was 12; and you are still marrying off tons of children. Which means there was no moral against it. So nothing actually changed vis-a-vis values. So what exactly is supposed to be the improvement here?
Roman legal texts state that earlier marriages are often accounted betrothals—one does not officially “become” married until legal age (as Hopkins himself points out, the source being used here). So we actually can’t deduce from this epigraphic data what was actually happening to these girls; the legal evidence suggests a lot of these are promises to marry (planned marriages), not actual consummated marriages. And this has more to do with inter-family politics and economics than sex. We should expect wealthier families to do this more than poor (as they have more at stake to plan marriages for), and so what we are seeing is the difference between wealthier pagans and poorer Christians, not between pagans and Christians. Christians just tended to be on average poorer than pagans (until so late in the sample space we no longer have anything statistically usable).
A related problem here is that this is chronologically confounded: most inscriptions do not indicate whether the subject was Christian, and most Christian inscriptions date much later in century, so we could be seeing marriage shift a little later (an average of a year) as the Roman Empire economically declined—and it just so happens that more and more population was then Christian; there is thus no causal relationship between their religion and age of first marriage. If you try to control by century, the number of inscriptions available becomes too small to make a statistically significant comparison.
Conversely, when you control for geography and social class we don’t see the same results at all, e.g. the average age skews up for both groups in Spain relative to Italy—and among the poor over the rich regardless of locale—yet in every century of the sample Christianity was more dominant in Italy than in Spain, and more urban than rural (the reason they are called pagani: in antiquity the more rural, the less likely people were to be Christian). So the data do not seem to strongly support the conclusion anyway. What we are seeing are more Christians who are urban poor erecting inscriptions than their pagan peers (thus reflecting trends common already among that social class), not more Christians delaying marriage.
There is also a problem of identification. The assumptions made in ruling an epitaph as pagan or Christian were poorly founded and can often be doubted, e.g. pagan phrases like “to the spirits of the departed” could continue to be used as idioms even by Christians, since they became so repetitious as to be ceremonial and did not entail any actual beliefs; conversely, many phrases then deemed suggestive of a Christian, like as suggest monotheism, are actually known phrases of pagans as well. So this being hugely obsolete research, over fifty years old now, I wouldn’t have trusted it to begin with.
To be honest I have difficulty finding any consistent thread of argument that makes me understand where you are coming from or that you have any real commitment to scholarship. Sometimes early writings are conclusive evidence of something, other times they’re just fiction. It’s like reading a faith based argument built on shifting sands.
By contrast, the James Paul refers to in Galatians 1:18-19 as “the Brother of the Lord” is grammatically in the Greek there declared not an Apostle, and therefore cannot be one of the “pillars” named in the next chapter (OHJ, pp. 589-90)
I’ve sent you the grammatical proof multiple times now. Again, read it.
To be honest I have difficulty finding any consistent thread of argument that makes me understand where you are coming from or that you have any real commitment to scholarship. Sometimes early writings are conclusive evidence of something, other times they’re just fiction. It’s like reading a faith based argument built on shifting sands.
By contrast, the James Paul refers to in Galatians 1:18-19 as “the Brother of the Lord” is grammatically in the Greek there declared not an Apostle, and therefore cannot be one of the “pillars” named in the next chapter (OHJ, pp. 589-90)
Says who? Galatians 1:19 says “But I did not see another one of the apostles except [l]James, the Lord’s brother.” That implies James was an apostle coming a few sentences after a James being called the brother of Jesus. Your Greek translation is different to everyone else’s then? That also pre-supposes the pillars had to be apostles, or one of the apostles named in the 4 gospels even though there are not 12 consistent names in every gospel and there were others named as apostles later so it wasn’t a term exclusive to 12.
There is also the political angle of rivalries within the early church which may have led to roles being downplayed or elevated that you ignore. You sometimes use Acts as a reliable source to prove your point but there is a lot in Acts that is dubious and may speak to an agenda of promoting Paul over the Jewish Christian tradition. He certainly thought that his direct revelation gave him equal if not superior standing than Peter and James.
Actual evidence? What does that even mean? It doesn’t seem consistently defined through the article.
I’m just going to give up and let you get on with it at this point. This is an old article so maybe your reasoning has developed since but I have to be honest that there is an almost narcissistic quality to it. I’m just some random guy on the internet, no academic background, who is interested in this topic and stumbled across this blog, but I have to say all this was almost flat-earthy in the way it comes across.
I’ve sent you the grammatical proof multiple times now. Again, read it.