There are legitimate reasons to doubt Jesus existed, even as a mundane man whose legend became exaggerated (which is, definitely, always plausible too). These reasons have survived peer review—twice. And yet a common fallacy deployed against this fact is that “no relevant experts take this seriously.” This is already a fallacy. Once there is a multiply-corroborated peer-reviewed challenge to a consensus, that means it’s substantial enough that the consensus needs to be re-examined on the new evidence and analysis presented. It might survive that examination. But you still have to do it. You can’t just say “no one takes it seriously” as an excuse to not even conduct that examination (see my remarks on this in What I Said at the Brea Conference).
Nevertheless, here I will dispatch the mere premise of this argument, the claim that “no one takes it seriously.” Below is a continually-updated list of all those bona fide experts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs (many even sitting or emeritus professors) alive as of 2014—who do take it seriously. I previously maintained this list in response to Bart Ehrman’s deployment of this fallacy. But the number of scholars who meet even his absurdly narrow criteria—and even more so any genuinely pertinent criteria—has grown so large it needs its own page now. So here it is.
In the following list I present in bold text those historians who either doubt the historicity of Jesus or have admitted to being agnostic about it (as in, they are unsure whether he existed or not). All the other scholars listed are convinced Jesus existed—they still don’t think “Mythicism” is probable (the idea that Jesus is entirely, and not just partially, mythical)—but they have gone on record admitting that at least some theories of the origin of Christianity without a real Jesus can be plausible enough that the debate is worth taking seriously, and not just dismissed out of hand as crackpot.
- Thomas Brodie. A now-retired Professor of Biblical Studies who confessed his doubts in Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (Sheffield Phoenix 2012); see my discussion in Historicity News and Brodie on Jesus.
- Richard Carrier (myself). An independent scholar with a PhD in Ancient History from Columbia University and multiple peer-reviewed publications, including the academic study On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reasons for Doubt (Sheffield Phoenix 2014). My colloquial summary, Jesus from Outer Space, outlines in simple terms the underlying logic of that peer-reviewed study. My anthology Hitler Homer Bible Christ includes all my pertinent peer-reviewed journal articles up to 2014. And my study of the methodology, which was peer-reviewed by professors of both mathematics and biblical studies (a requirement I set in my contract), is Proving History: Bayes’s Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus (Prometheus 2012).
- Raphael Lataster. An independent scholar with a PhD in Religious Studies from the University of Sydney, who explained his doubts in his peer-reviewed assessment of the debate in Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (Brill 2019).
- Robert M. Price. An independent scholar with two pertinent PhDs, in Systematic Theology and New Testament Studies. He has multiple publications explaining his doubts, e.g. The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (American Atheist 2012).
- Thomas Thompson. A retired yet renowned Professor of Biblical Studies and Second-Temple Judaism, who originated the now-consensus doubts about the historicity of Moses and the Patriarchs, and explained his similar doubts about Jesus in The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Basic Books 2009) and Is This Not The Carpenter? The Question of the Historicity of the Figure of Jesus (Routledge 2017).
- Philip Davies. A Professor of Biblical Studies (now deceased) with a PhD in the field from Oxford, who publicly argued that doubting historicity was a respectable academic position; and then privately admitted that in fact he actually doubted the historicity of Jesus. This was posthumously confirmed by correspondence with Raphael Lataster and myself (e.g. see Lataster 2019).
- Hector Avalos. At the time a sitting Professor of Religion at Iowa State University (now deceased), with a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Near Eastern Studies from Harvard, who declared his agnosticism about historicity to me personally, and then publicly in the Ames Tribune on 2 March 2013.
- Arthur Droge. A sitting Professor of Early Christianity, previously at UC San Diego and later the University of Toronto, with a PhD in the field from the University of Chicago, who explained his agnosticism at the 2008 Amherst conference on the historical Jesus, and in its associated 2009 article for CAESAR, “Jesus and Ned Lud[d]: What’s in a Name?”
- Carl Ruck. A Professor of Classical Studies at Boston University, with a PhD in ancient literature from Harvard, who confessed his doubts on a Mythvision interview in May 2022 (in minute 31).
- David Madison. An independent scholar with a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University, who publicly confirmed his agnosticism in Q&A during the GCRR 2021 e Conference on the Historical Jesus.
- J. Harold Ellens. A Professor of Biblical Studies at the Ecumenical Theological Seminary of Detroit (now deceased) with a history of numerous honors, publications, and positions in the field, including a PhD in Second Temple Judaism and Christian Origins from Michigan University. In Sources of the Jesus Tradition (Prometheus 2010) he repeatedly expressed his doubts as to the historical existence of Jesus (see comment for quoted examples).
- Nicholas Peter Allen. A Professor of Ancient Languages and Text Studies at North-West University with two PhD’s (in Art History and Ancient Greek Studies) and a considerable body of relevant publications. In his book The Jesus Fallacy: The Greatest Lie Ever Told (2022) he defends considerable doubt that Jesus existed, allowing only for its sparse possibility.
- Rodney Blackhirst. A Lecturer in Philosophy and Religious Studies at La Trobe University (and prior to that, Biblical Studies) with a Ph.D. in ancient religion from La Trobe and several publications in the field. He has been known to endorse Joseph Atwill’s crankery, and has said some dubious things, but has subsequently explained that he actually has many disagreements with Atwill, and only thinks theories like it are worth pursuing. And though he doesn’t “discount the possibility” of a historical Jesus, “his own leaning is towards a mythical” one.
- Derek Murphy. An author with a Ph.D. in Comparative Literature from National Taiwan University. He wrote Jesus Potter Harry Christ (2011) arguing Jesus was not historical but a product of folklore.
- Marian Hillar. A Professor of Philosophy and Religious Studies and Biochemistry at Texas Southern University. Though he only has an M.D. and a Ph.D. in Biochemistry (which ordinarily I would not allow to qualify), he is an internationally renowned expert in religious studies (especially Renaissance Christianity), and published an excellent and prestigious peer-reviewed study of the pre-history of the Christian idea of the Trinity, From Logos to Trinity: The Evolution of Religious Beliefs from Pythagoras to Tertullian (Cambridge University Press 2012), in which he declares the quest for the historical Jesus a failure and quotes Earl Doherty’s thesis favorably (pp. 135–37); elsewhere he has said there is “evidence that there was no particular figure of Jesus.”
- Christophe Batsch. A retired professor of Second Temple Judaism (and of Roman, Slavic, and Middle Eastern Studies at Université de Lille) with a PhD in the same and a considerable publication record. In a chapter he contributed to Juifs et chrétiens aux premiers siècles (CERC 2019) he declares his agnosticism, calling the question of historicity “strictly undecidable” (rigoureusement indécidable), and says those who claim to have proved or disproved the existence of Jesus “only express a spontaneous and personal conviction, devoid of any scientific foundation” (ne font qu’exprimer une conviction spontanée et personnelle, dénuée de tout fondement scientifique), so whether any material goes back to a real man is plausible but unknown.
- Charlotte Touati. A professor of theology and religion at the University of Lausanne, with a Ph.D. in theology from the University of Strasbourg (and a Ph.D. in Literature from the University of Neuchâtel). She confirmed in private correspondence that she believes there is no good evidence for a historical Jesus.
- Herman Detering. A lifelong pastor and independent scholar with a PhD in Theology and New Testament studies under Dr. Walter Schmithals at Humboldt-Universität Berlin. His doctoral dissertation argued that Paul was a rhetorical invention, and though he suspects Jesus existed in some sense, he conceded doubt still needed to be taken seriously.
- Zeba Crook. A Professor of Religious Studies at Carleton University, with a PhD in theology (like Bart Ehrman, and most Biblical scholars nowadays) from St. Michael’s College. He defends the historicity of Jesus but has publicly explained that it’s nevertheless plausible to doubt or debate it (Facebook, 30 December 2017 and 2 January 2018).
- Kurt Noll. A sitting Professor of Religion at Brandon University, with a PhD in theology from the Union Theological Seminary in Virginia. He is a historicist who admits it’s nevertheless plausible to theorize Jesus might not have existed, as he explains in a chapter he contributed to Is This Not the Carpenter, “Investigating Earliest Christianity Without Jesus.”
- Emanuel Pfoh. A sitting Professor of History at the National University of La Plata. He is a historicist who admits it’s nevertheless plausible to theorize Jesus might not have existed, as he explains in a chapter he contributed to Is This Not the Carpenter, “Jesus and the Mythic Mind: An Epistemological Problem” (cf. p. 92).
- James Crossley. A sitting Professor of the Bible at St. Mary’s University with a PhD in the field from the University of Nottingham. He is a historicist who nevertheless wrote in the preface to Lataster 2019 that “scepticism about historicity is worth thinking about seriously—and, in light of demographic changes, it might even feed into a dominant position in the near future.”
- Justin Meggitt. A Professor of Religion on the Faculty of Divinity at the University of Cambridge with a PhD in New Testament Studies from Cambridge. He is a historicist who nevertheless concluded in a 2019 article in New Testament Studies (“‘More Ingenious than Learned’? Examining the Quest for the Non-Historical Jesus”) that questioning historicity “does not belong to the past and nor is it irrational” and it “should not be dismissed with problematic appeals to expertise and authority and nor should it be viewed as unwelcome.”
- Darren Slade. President of the Global Center for Religious Research, with a Ph.D. in theology and church history. He is a historicist who confirmed to me personally, and publicly at the GCRR 2021 eConference on the Historical Jesus [link not functioning at present], that questioning historicity nevertheless deserves to hold a respectable place in Jesus studies.
- Steve Mason. A Professor of Ancient Mediterranean Religions and Cultures at the University of Groningen, with a PhD in ancient Judaism from St. Michael’s College. He is a historicist who has published on the historical Jesus but has nevertheless said that serious proposals that Jesus didn’t exist “should be considered and tested,” not rejected out of hand, and that “it may be” that Jesus didn’t exist (Harmonic Atheist, October 2020, at 28:30).
- Richard C. Miller. An Adjunct Professor of Religious Studies at Chapman University, with a Ph.D. in Religion from Claremont Graduate University in LA and a prominent peer reviewed monograph in the field: Resurrection and Reception in Early Christianity (Routledge 2014). He is a historicist who nevertheless wrote a foreword supporting the Mythicist anthology by John Loftus and Robert Price, The Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? (Hypatia 2021). There he declares there are only two plausible positions in the field now regarding Jesus: that he is entirely a myth, or nothing survives about him but myth. He later confirmed this in a short video at MythVision.
- John Kloppenborg. A sitting Professor of Religion at the University of Toronto with a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies. He has remarked that though he sees no reason to doubt the historicity of Jesus, he nevertheless doesn’t think the evidence is conclusive enough to render doubt preposterous (Mythvision, August 2022, minutes 7:30-11:00).
- Tom Dykstra. An independent scholar with a Ph.D. in the History of Renaissance Christianity who has nevertheless published peer reviewed works in New Testament studies. He is a historicist who nevertheless grants the plausibility of the mythicist position in a 2015 article for the Journal of the OCABS (“Ehrman and Brodie on Whether Jesus Existed: A Cautionary Tale about the State of Biblical Scholarship”). See my article Dykstra on Ehrman & Brodie.
- Fernando Bermejo-Rubio. With a PhD in the History of Religion from UNED, he has held numerous professorships of Christian history (including at the University of Madrid) and built an extensive publication record in the field. In his book La invención de Jesús de Nazaret he points out that mythicism needs to be taken more seriously. In Gesù Resistente Gesù Inesistente he and Franco Tommasi together wrote (translating from the Italian), “Unlike many of our colleagues in the academic field, who ignore or take a contemptuous attitude towards mythicist, pro-mythicist or para-mythicist positions, we do not regard them as inherently absurd” but “Instead, we think that, when these are sufficiently argued, they deserve careful examination and detailed answers.”
- Francesca Stavrakopoulou. A Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at the University of Exeter. She’s said the historicity of Jesus is only “possible,” not certain (Twitter October 2016); or that it’s more probable. But she agrees mythicism is plausible enough to be debatable.
- Burton Mack. A renowned Professor of Early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology in Claremont, California (now deceased), with a PhD in the field from the University of Göttingen. In a chapter from his earlier book A Myth of Innocence that he contributed to an anthology edited by Jacob Neusner (and thus with Neusner’s endorsement), The Christian and Judaic Invention of History (Oxford University 1990) Mack recommends that experts pay more attention to Mythicist work (naming G.A. Wells specifically). Though Mack says it lies on the “fringes of the discipline,” he mentions it specifically as among things the field should be taking more note of (p. 24).
- Gerd Lüdemann. Was a Professor of New Testament at multiple universities and before his retirement held numerous prominent positions in the field, with an extensive publication record and doctorates in theology and New Testament from the University of Göttingen. In Jesus Mythicism: An Introduction by Minas Papageorgiou, when asked about it Lüdemann says that, although he is still convinced Jesus existed in some sense, “I do admire Arthur Drews and the Christ Myth theory is a serious hypothesis about the origins of Christianity.”
- Christopher Hartney. A Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies at the University of Sydney with a PhD in Religion and an extensive publication record. In his review of his student Raphael Lataster’s early work questioning the historicity of Jesus, Hartney finds such doubt plausible and warranting reply.
- Carole Cusack. A Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Sydney with a PhD in Religious Studies and a significant publication record on the study of religion. In her review of her student Raphael Lataster’s early work questioning the historicity of Jesus, Cusack agrees such doubts are plausible enough to engage and consider.
- Matti Kankaanniemi. An independent scholar with a Ph.D. in Theology from Åbo Akademi University, and multiple related publications. He recently gave a presentation at the Society of Biblical Literature 2022 Annual Meeting in which he defends a (minimalist) historicist position but admits doubters “deserve more attention from the mainline scholarship than what they have received.”
- Norman Simms. An Associate Professor of Comparative Literature in the Department of English at the University of Waikato (now deceased) with a Ph.D. in the subject from Washington University, and who has a vast publication record, including papers on ancient religion and Judaism; he also taught courses on the historical Jesus. He wrote “we know nothing about [the] real man” and “I cannot say for sure Jesus existed, but I think the early material at least suggests there was indeed a Jew called Jesus” from whom he “suspects” some few sayings originated (“The Jewish Jesus: Who Says So?” in Teaching the Historical Jesus: Issues and Exegesis, ed. Zev Garber, Routledge 2014, pp. 91–92). His wording indicates he agreed doubting is at least plausible.
- Juuso Loikkanen. A postdoctoral researcher in Systematic Theology at the University of Eastern Finland, with a PhD in Systematic Theology from the same, and numerous academic publications in the subject of theology. In an article published in Theology & Science he joined two other theologians (listed next) in arguing that scholars need to admit that “the existence of Jesus as a historical person cannot be determined with any certainty and that peer-reviewed literature doubting the historicity of Jesus is emerging with obvious rebuttals.”
- Esko Ryökäs. An Adjunct Professor in Systematic Theology at the University of Eastern Finland, with a PhD in theology from Åbo Akademi University, and numerous academic publications in the subject of theology (including work in ancient history). In an article published in Theology & Science he joined two other theologians (listed above and below) in arguing that scholars need to admit that “the existence of Jesus as a historical person cannot be determined with any certainty and that peer-reviewed literature doubting the historicity of Jesus is emerging with obvious rebuttals.”
- Petteri Nieminen. A Professor of Medical Biology at the University of Eastern Finland, with PhD’s in medicine, biology and theology, the latter also from UEF, and numerous academic publications in that subject. In an article published in Theology & Science he joined two other theologians (listed above) in arguing that scholars need to admit that “the existence of Jesus as a historical person cannot be determined with any certainty and that peer-reviewed literature doubting the historicity of Jesus is emerging with obvious rebuttals.”
- Thomas Römer. For years a Professor and eventually Dean of Old Testament Studies at the University of Lausanne and since moved on to other prestigious posts, with a PhD in Theology from the University of Geneva, and an impressive publication record. He wrote an approving preface to Nanine Charbonnel’s mythicist book Jésus-Christ, sublime figure de papier (BERG 2017) in which he admits historicity is an overwrought assumption in the field. (I do not list Charbonnel herself only because her PhD, publication record, and professorships are all in modern philosophy, and her book is not a peer-reviewed monograph, and all her peer-reviewed work is unrelated.)
- Uriel Rappaport. Professor of Jewish History (now emeritus) at the University of Haifa with a considerable publication record, particularly on subjects in Roman history. In his book John of Gischala: From the Mountains of Galilee to the Walls of Jerusalem (University of Haifa 2013), he writes, “I shall not enter into the question of the real existence of the ‘historical Jesus’,” because the Gospel Jesus “is not a real historical figure, even if there had been a person of that name from whom the familiar figure represented by the Gospels emerged,” indicating he is not even certain there was one (pp. 146–47 n. 2), concluding Jesus was thus “a dramatic character” (p. 9 n. 2) for whom it is unknown “whether he was a historical individual or a character that was formed and fashioned by his followers” (p. 10 n. 1).
- Milad Milani. Senior Lecturer in Religious Studies at Western Sydney University with a PhD in Middle Eastern Studies from the University of Sydney. In his review in the Journal of Religious History of Raphael Lataster’s academic study Questioning the Historicity of Jesus, Milani finds the whole debate over Jesus mostly amusing but concludes Lataster is an astute scholar and the book “offers an opportunity to both rethink the study of Jesus” and to “delve into a thorough and detailed examination of Jesus scholarship,” while earlier he remarked that “Jesus the man—if he existed—died,” statements affirming at least the plausibility of doubting it.
- David Trobisch. An expert on Paul and the Bible, with a ThD from Heidelburg under the renowned Gerd Theissen, he has held multiple professorships in New Testament studies and even the curatorship of the Green Collection and the Museum of the Bible. In the anthology Resonanzen: Gerd Theißen zum 80. Geburtstag (Gütersloher Verlagshaus 2023) Trobisch contributed “Was, wenn alles nur erfunden wäre? Über Literatur und Resonanzerfahrung” (“What If It Was All Made Up? On Literature and Reader-Response”) in which he posits the possibility that Jesus was a fiction invented for literary and religious purposes, comparing him to Harry Potter and Sherlock Holmes. He does not outright say there was no Jesus; but he clearly considers that plausible.
- Clint Heacock. Host of the Mindshift Podcast and long-time teacher and seminarian with a PhD in Theology and Religious Studies from the University of Chester. On the Sensibly Speaking podcast he acknowledged Jesus might not have existed, cautioning “if you accept that he was a historical figure” and saying Jesus “allegedly served his time on Earth.” And on the Graceful Atheist show he admits “there’s a lot of questions around the Gospels and the historicity of Jesus.”
- Nina Livesey. Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Oklahoma with a PhD in the same from SMU Dallas, specializing in Pauline literature, with many publications thereon. She has published a Cambridge study questioning the historicity of Paul, though remains a Jesus historicist; but she does not regard doubting Jesus to be ridiculous, agreeing that it warrants inquiry.
- C.J. Cornthwaite. Host of Footnote Famous with a PhD in Christian Origins from the Toronto School of Theology. He’s not convinced of mythicism but does think it’s a theory worth considering and not dismissing out of hand (and that’s even without yet having read any of the peer reviewed studies finding for doubt).
- Luzia Sutter Rehmann. Professor of Theology at the University of Basel, with a doctorate in same from the University of Kassel, with over a hundred publications in New Testament history, admitted her doubts in a 24 December 2024 episode of WDR Zeitzeichen, “Jesus von Nazareth: Fakten, Mythen und eine Frage des Glaubens,” in minute 13, where she says “I’m not sure if Jesus lived” (Ich bin nicht sicher, ob Jesus gelebt hat), “There might have been someone,” (Es könnte jemanden gegeben haben), “but perhaps also several, perhaps many, from whom this image was then woven into the Gospels.”
- Radosław Czarnecki. PhD in religious studies from the University of Wrocław and member of the Polish Society for the Study of Religions (Polskiego Towarzystwa Religioznawczego), with publications in Polish magazines and journals. Endorses at least the plausibility of Polish rationalist Grzegorz Roman’s view that Jesus is “a non-historical figure” (3:34), at most “a composite figure, a synthesis of two—or perhaps several, even a dozen or so—individuals” (34:30) and therefore “the very demand to prove the existence of this Jesus as a historical figure is, in itself, nonsensical” (25:15).
Which makes forty-eight relevantly qualified experts now who concur mythicism is at least plausible. A third of them are even outright doubters. There are surely many others who simply haven’t gone on the record—just like Davies, who feared backlash from admitting his doubt publicly while alive. If you find public statements placing any more scholars in either category, do let me know in comments below. Though please note that only scholars with relevant PhDs alive as of 2014 are to be listed here. But already at nearly fifty, that’s quite a large number to be doubting the consensus in a niche (and highly faith-biased) subfield.
-:-
Further Links of Interest
- List of Responses to Defenders of the Historicity of Jesus
- How to Successfully Argue Jesus Existed
- Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus
- On Evaluating Arguments from Consensus
And…
- Things Fall Apart Only When You Check
- Some Controversial Ideas That Now Have Wide Scholarly Support
- An Ongoing List of Updates to the Arguments and Evidence in On the Historicity of Jesus





It’s “plausible” that Peter and “The Twelve” (mentioned in 1 Corinth 15) never knew an historical Jesus. They may have only heard stories of this “Jesus” that had been circulating – a “Jesus” that was this Jewish Wise Man, maybe a miracle worker, who taught about love and justice and equality and the coming Kingdom of God. A totally mythological – or, really, “legendary” Jesus. Yet, Peter and The Twelve – as a lot of Jews – believed this “Jesus” was a real person.
Then, the story develops, and Jesus is killed by some corrupt, local Sanhedrin.
And – then – Peter gets his “vision from God”. Jesus has been “raised from the dead”. Meaning something like “his spirit has been raised up and exalted”. Jesus “lives” – in our hearts. Blablabla.
That’s plausible.
Is it “likely”? That’s another question.
But, just because someone might consider an idea “plausible” doesn’t, in itself, really mean squat.
That scenario is too improbable to credit. See my discussion of like scenarios in OHJ, Chapter 3.3. It has a vanishing prior, and no evidence. So it’s out of account.
If someone publishes a theory like that that passes peer review, I’ll attend to it. But until that happens, it’s not viable.
There is a difference between possible and plausible. Most possibilities are not plausible (e.g. Jesus was a literal space alien; the entire history of Christianity and all its literature was invented by a single anonymous monk in the 12th century). So it’s not enough to list possibilities. You have to establish they are plausible (which means, generally, having a probability at least above 1 percent). But yes, plausible still does not get you to probable. As that requires evidence that one theory is more probable than all competing theories (at least individually, if not combined).
You should also include another diseased Spanish intelectual Gonzalo Puente Ojea.
I’m unaware of him meeting any relevant criteria.
1 Corinthians 15 was written within 10 years of the life of Jesus, the earliest copy we have dates to 115AD. The eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus would have been easily able to refute the writings of Paul if they weren’t true.
It is one of the key reason’s why Carriers theories don’t work, and why the discipline of Ancient History doesn’t dispute the existence of Jesus as a real person of History.
That’s false, Jason. Earliest copy of 1 Corinthians dates c. 200 AD. On biased Christian apologists trying to down-date manuscripts see Nongbri’s God’s Library.
And its creed composed, mere years after, if not indeed days after. This has no effect on the question. As that letter never mentions Jesus ever being on Earth. Indeed, the Corinthian creed peculiarly does not mention anyone ever seeing Jesus until after he was dead. His death and burial were cited as known only from scripture. The evidence, passages, and other details establishing all these points are in the peer reviewed study you are supposed to be reading but evidently are actively avoiding. Likewise in the study independently corroborating that one.
That you didn’t know these things proves you are emotionally committed to the conclusion and not actually interested in questioning or testing it against the evidence, even the very evidence you cite. This proves we are right. Because only people who do what you just did feel so confident in your conclusion. Those who take the evidence seriously and actually read the studies or their summaries non-disingenuously end up on this list.
It isn’t false, the earliest copy is the fragment P46, which, as you should know, dates much earlier than the full copies we have of 1st Corinthians. That fragment dates to 100-140 AD. I simply used 115AD as a reasonable approximation. Nothing I wrote was false. P46 is a copy of 1Corinthians 3-5, which when you directly translate the Greek reads:
““For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received:
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
that he was buried,
that he has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.”
It was written by the author Paul less than 10 years after Jesus’ life.
There is no emotion here, only evidence-based research. Having spent several decades studying and teaching these texts, through Undergraduate and postgraduate work and employment, I am well-versed in their history.
The irony of your post is that Lataster doesn’t corroborate your work at all. This is your false claim. The best you can say is that he takes your argument seriously and accepts that your methodological approach is worthy of exploration. But he opposes your use of Bayesian presuppositions (known as Priors), and I quote “I don’t think the problem is Carrier’s mathematics, so much as his possible overestimation of the ‘objectivity’… It is a subjective probability…”.
Lataster emphasises that Bayesian conclusions are subjective and does not treat your specific probability estimates as definitive. Lataster supports the idea that a Bayesian approach can add value, but he is sceptical of any approach, the traditional historical method, or the method you have essentially created (using your own Priors), can give a definitive answer on the historicity of the person of Jesus. He doesn’t corroborate your method or conclusions. But he is just one academic, anyway, who really sits in the “no method is definitive; all methods could be useful” camp, which I am sure you know. Treating his serious engagement with your work as implicit or explicit support is stretching the truth.
The peer-reviewed study you cite (your own book “On the Historicity of Jesus 2014) has no published peer reviews that positively back your book. Your claim that it was peer-reviewed before you published it has never been backed up by you, nor have you revealed who reviewed it and/or the nature or text of those reviews that I am aware of. So there is no way to verify your claim (if you have shared these, please let me know, I would be keen to read them).
Peer-reviewed simply means a journal article or paper, or a book in your case, has reached a minimum publishable academic standard. It doesn’t mean the field of study agrees with it, or that the arguments are persuasive, or that the conclusions are accepted; it’s the base level required to publish, that’s all.
The published peer reviews of your book provide a strong critique of your approach, both Atheist and Christian Historical Professors and Scholars. Some examples (feel free to respond to any of their substantive reviews). Although you might reject this comment, I am genuinely interested in hearing your response to the following peer reviews of your book. Which I am sure you would be aware of.
1. Daniel N. Gullotta (atheist historian of early Christianity / ancient religion)
Published a major academic response in the Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus
Conclusion: Your hypothesis is “problematic and unpersuasive”
2. Christina Petterson (non-beliving historian of early Christianity)
3. Marko Marina (non-Christian ancient historian)
Argues your approach is:
Those are just three. I would be interested to know if you have read their work and what your response is?
These are all lies, Jason.
You need to look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself why you have to lie here.
From reading your posts, I became aware of Hector Avalos “The End of Biblical Studies”, which I have now completely read.
Along with all of your books and articles, I’m glad to add this work to my growing library of scholars who have made such enormous contributions to this particular topic.
This list will be particularly of interest to me as I intend to read any additional research and works.
If the Christian community was truly interested in spreading the truth, they would not attempt to hide behind claimed historicity without adequate and contemporary evidence. They won’t tell what they do not want people to know, you have to find this out (somehow) for yourself (and frankly, that took many years as I didn’t know where to look). You have to step outside of the entire culture to find the facts vs the hearsay.
They would also willingly admit the numerous flaws, errors, contradictions, omissions and interpolations that make the Bible a seriously flawed work, versus the claims of inerrancy (hardly) and what this actually means for the very concept of Christianity today. I understand their reasons, but I don’t accept their excuse. They know they are in error, teaching errors and propagating dishonesty and deception, the very vipers Christ allegedly warned us against.
I moved on, but having the resources available to demonstrate what is actually true, real and valid is of enormous help.
Thank you for the work that you do, it is much appreciated.
Every book Avalos wrote is of tremendous value in its topic. The field is definitely better off for having had him in it.
But do be aware, there is a difference between Christian apologists (who are defending a Faith) and historicity apologists (who are a broader group of people, many of whom are largely comfortable with destroying the Faith).
The Jesus “son of God” stuff is rejected by the mainstream consensus. So the mainstream consensus left to challenge is not the Jesus of Faith anymore, it’s the many reconstructions of a mundane Jesus behind the myths.
So when I speak of Mythicism, I’m talking about challenging even the mundane Jesus stuff. The supernatural Jesus stuff has already been dumped. Insofar as that mythical Jesus is all we meant, all mainstream scholars are “mythicists” (call them “Gospel Mythicists”). But the subject here today is full Mythicism: going one step beyond where the mainstream has dared to go.
Which matters, because the mundane Jesuses reconstructed by historians are not implausible. So atheists have no skin in that game. It doesn’t matter if one of those Jesuses existed. So when I doubt even that, I am not doing so because I think those reconstructions are implausible. They’re totally plausible. In OHJ (Ch. 12) I even give them a collective 1 in 3 chance of being true. I just think the evidence proffered for them is weak, and suggestive of something else.
Here is Neil Godfrey’s list.
https://vridar.org/whos-who-among-mythicists-and-mythicist-agnostics/
Neil lists Burton Mack. Wikipedia says Burton Mack was John Wesley Professor emeritus in early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology in Claremont, California.
Doesn’t he qualify for your list?
Thanks for including that link. I’m aware of that list, and it is useful, but my list is deliberately limited to qualified experts (since the usual retort is that they are not; so I am refuting that specific claim with my list). Godfrey’s list aims to dispel the claim that Mythicists are all angry ex-Christians and societal fringers, which his list refutes.
Keep the specific recommendations coming though. I had not had Mack on my list because I couldn’t verify his position (there are others on that list who also haven’t made clear public statements, or whose credentials I can’t ascertain or verify, so I can’t use them either; I would need more clear information). But now that Amazon has a Look Inside of the pertinent text, I don’t need a library to confirm what he said, so I will be adding him now. Thanks to your reminder!
Another one from Neil Godfrey’s list who should be added to your list is Gerd Lüdemann.
Lüdemann had a doctorate in theology (D.Theol.) from the University of Göttingen, was a professor of New Testament studies at multiple universities, and served as co-chair of the SBL Seminar on Jewish Christianity and as a member of the editorial board of The Second Century: A Journal of Early Christian Studies.
https://wwwuser.gwdg.de/~gluedem/eng/person_e.htm
As Godfrey notes, in the book “Jesus Mythicism: An Introduction” by Minas Papageorgiou, the author interviews Lüdemann about his views. Lüdemann states that he believes that a historical Jesus existed, but also says “I do admire Arthur Drews and the Christ Myth theory is a serious hypothesis about the origins of Christianity.”
I had already put a query over to Godfrey for data on this and was just waiting for that. This saves time. Thanks. I can add it now!
In the chapter by J. Harold Ellens in the book “Sources of the Jesus Tradition: Separating History from Myth,” edited by R. Joseph Hoffman, Ellens seems to indicate that he is a historicity agnostic:
“…the report on Jesus in the Gospels contends that he lived with a vivid concept of reality that would call his sanity into question. This Jesus is not a historical person but a literary character in a story, though there may or may not be a real person behind that story.”
He alludes to this same “maybe Jesus existed, maybe he didn’t” theme at least four more times in the same chapter:
“As noted already, the Jesus with whom we have to deal on the pages of the New Testament is only a literary character in a story, not a person we can identify in history.”
“…it is necessary to ask what it might have been about the historical Jesus, if there was one at all, that made it possible to generate such a remarkable literary work around him as the main character…”
“It was not the historical Jesus who did that. It was the literary character of Jesus, from the narrative drama of the Gospels and from the confessional myths and transcendental vision made of it. What did the man, if there was a man, behind that story have that made that drama and its myth so vitalizing?”
“But what was it about that historic Son of Man (bar enosh, ben Adam), real or imagined, behind the literary character that made it possible for him to generate and carry the transcendental weight and power of that myth?”
As to his qualifications, Ellens had a PhD in in Second Temple Judaism and Christian Origins from the University of Michigan:
https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/63842
Note that while the title page of his dissertation says that his PhD is in “Near Eastern Studies,” he states at the bottom of page “v” in the Acknowledgements that it is specifically in “Second Temple Judaism and Christian Origins.”
Thank you. I especially appreciate the work you put in documenting quotations and sources.
I’ll add Ellens. I can’t believe I missed that one!
Are you sure Detering can be counted as falling into the “doubters and agnostics” category? According to Neil Godfrey, although Detering’s case for the non-historicity of Paul implied the non-historicity of Jesus as well, Detering nevertheless believed in the historicity of Jesus on other grounds.
Detering wrote: “But — did a historical figure named Jesus exist at all? … Obviously, we must doubt his existence. And nevertheless the theories put forward until now radically disputing the historicity of Jesus seem insufficient to me… So the solution of the entire problem obviously cannot be to fully delete a man named Jesus from history.”
See discussion here: https://vridar.org/whos-who-among-mythicists-and-mythicist-agnostics/#comment-118485
Thank you. That will move him to the second half of the list.
I’ve listened to alot of talks by Dr. Robert Eisenman and he seems agnostic at times about a historical Jesus to me – I’m sorry but I’m away from my books and research materials (health issues ah such is old age) so do not have one specific quote but I sure got that impression from listening to many talks by him…perhaps someone could reach out to him.
TY
Eisenman is a crank and IMO probably insane. But he does have a somewhat relevant PhD. However, he is a Jesus historicist. His whole schtick is Jesus dynasty nonsense (plus a bunch of wildly convoluted “Bible Code” conspiracy theories).
Hi Richard. Francesca Stavrakopoulou discusses whether Jesus existed on the BBC Big Questions show in an episode entitled Did Man Create God? She addresses the host’s question about Jesus’ existence at around 35:16, and she comes in and out at various moments throughout the rest of the episode and addresses various points related to the historicity of Jesus. Here’s the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PTRGuwb1M
Do you think anything there changes the assessment here?
(I had seen that show a long time ago; but she says “probably” Jesus existed and even at one moment “possibly” Jesus existed. So I have taken this as corroborating her Twitter statements that I link to.)
I don’t think her comments in this TV segment necessarily contradict what she said on Twitter where she says Jesus “possibly” existed in response to the thread where somebody asks for a “bottom line” answer. But the TV clip adds some nuance.
On the TV segment, when asked if Jesus existed, she says “possibly…probably…probably a figure like Jesus existed.” I think she’s in part poking fun at Christian apologetics generally. She questions his use of the Bible as a historical document where later she says in response to him that she “wouldn’t call them (New Testament accounts) records” and disputes his dating of them. She also says “lots of people thought they saw Elvis” when the Christian apologist talks about eyewitness accounts.
In the context of the show which is entitled “Does Evidence Undermine Religion”, the subject of the resurrection comes up, and the Christian apologist admits this is key to his faith. Stavrakopolou also says about Jesus’ existence, “great if he did, who cares if he didn’t, from my perspective as a historian.” She also talks about resurrections not being exclusive to Christianity.
I think she’s saying that whether Jesus existed is a historical question to be privileged and people’s personal, spiritual beliefs shouldn’t matter in the assessment of the evidence. She discusses how the word “truth” is a loaded word as opposed to “falsity”, further demonstrating her privileging empiricism and evidence over faith, belief, and metaphysics.
So I would say that she tacitly takes mythicism seriously, which is the point of the above list, but it remains to be seen what number she might put on “possibly…probably.” It’d be great to see her engage on this topic a bit more. But I think one of her ancillary points is that the existence, death and resurrection of Jesus is crucial for a believing Christian but should be a historical question in general.
Thank you for the analysis.
In his youtube lecture
“Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History – Part 1 of 2” he expresses doubts about the historicity of Jesus
Thanks. He also did so elsewhere (as linked). Hence he is included in the above list.
In the abstract of his paper, “Questioning the Quests: Usefulness of the Concept of Quest in the Historical Jesus Research,” presented at the 2022 Annual Meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature, Matti Kankaanniemi wrote: “There is a rather small but vocal and articulative contemporary No Quest, represented especially by Carrier, Price, Thomson and Wells, which might deserve more attention from the mainline scholarship than what they have received.”
I’m not sure who he means by “Thomson,” but I assume it’s supposed to be Thomas Thompson.
The quote can be found in the abstract given here:
https://www.sbl-site.org/meetings/abstract.aspx?id=61710
However, that page does not give his name. To find the abstract in connection with his name, go to this page:
https://www.sbl-site.org/meetings/Congresses_ProgramBook.aspx?MeetingId=41
and search for “Kankaanniemi” in the “Last Name” field.
Kankaanniemi has a Ph.D. in New Testament studies from Åbo Akademi University:
https://jyu.finna.fi/Record/jykdok.1190598?lng=en-gb
Good find. Thank you for all the resources as well. This is enough to add him.
I found a better link for you to include in your list, so that readers do not have to use the SBL website’s search engine to locate the presentation.
This link:
https://www.sbl-site.org/meetings/Congresses_ProgramBook.aspx?MeetingId=41
should be replaced with this link:
https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Meetings/SBL_ProgramBook_AM_2022.pdf
That new link has his name listed along with the title of his presentation, the section of the SBL to which his presentation belonged, the date, etc.
Thank you. I agree, that would be better; even though a reader has to search the PDF, it’s still more usable.
Hi dr. Carrier, I have found that this acadenic, Christophe Batsch, is a Jesus Agnostic, if not a mythicist, having read his article where he argues for Christianity being born after the 70 CE, as result of a collection, worked artificially in Alexandria, of the sayings and acts of various Messiahs, “among them possibly even the sayings of a charismatic Galilean”.
https://www.academia.edu/42447127/Des_vies_de_J%C3%A9sus_%C3%A0_la_destruction_du_temple_de_J%C3%A9rusalem_Hypoth%C3%A8ses_historiographiques_sur_l%C3%A9mergence_du_jud%C3%A9o_christianisme
Well spotted. Thank you. I’ll look into that and if it checks out I’ll add him.
Hi Dr. Carrier, I have found another prof (University of Haifa) who appears to be a Jesus Agnostic.
Uriel Rappaport writes:
I shall not enter into the question of the real existence of the ‘historical Jesus’, but the figure that emerges from the gospels is certainly one that is of a theological design and is not a real historical figure, even if there had been a person of that name from whom the familiar figure represented by the Gospels emerged.
Source:
https://www.academia.edu/2383453/JOHN_OF_GISCHALA_From_the_mountains_of_Galilee_to_the_Walls_of_Jerusalem_2013_An_English_translation_of_the_Hebrew_edition_of_2006
https://iias.huji.ac.il/people/uriel-rappaport
Best prosecution,
Giuseppe Ferri
Thank you for finding that and sourcing it for me. I’d like his statement to be clearer, but it’s just about good enough to qualify. So I will add it.
Really there are clearer claims:
Thirdly, it is doubtful if there are any historical facts regarding Jesus, whose life history is in the domain of theology and myth(JOHN OF GISCHALA,From the mountains of Galilee to the Walls of Jerusalem, 2013. An English translation of the Hebrew edition of 2006, available on academia.edu, p. 146)
The reduction of the ‘Jesus phenomenon’ to its Galilean origin does not contribute to a deeper understanding of Jesus but limits the horizon of historical research unnecessarily, and in fact diminishes the stature of this real or mythical man.
(p. 160)
I found better ones. But still could be more explicit. At any rate, best and clearest remarks are now in the article. This brings us to forty scholars who admit doubting historicity is at least plausible.
Prof David Trobisch appears to be a Jesus Agnostic and a Paul Agnostic. It seems that the Marcionite priority alone raises the doubt about the historicity of both.
See here. https://www.academia.edu/101329132/_Was_wenn_alles_nur_erfunden_w%C3%A4re_%C3%9Cber_Literatur_und_Resonanzerfahrung_?email_work_card=title
I’d have to see exact quotes (and in context). If you can acquire a copy of this, please send it to me at richard.carrier@icloud.com (I can read the German, so a direct PDF or equivalent will do).
I have sent you an email with the subject “David Trobisch”.
Thank you!
I hate the “nobody in the field takes it seriously” brush off | the same thing can be said about Darwin I assume or other groundbreaking scientific claims in history. Also the stigma that comes with it in a field where many scholars need to make proclamations of faith etc
And you have some big names in that list that at the very least do not outright dismiss the theory as childs play similar to flath earth etc
I really want to read your newest book on historicity but Im in ecuador now and shipping is high
That’s true but I would warn against analogies like that. Darwin had vastly more evidence than anyone has vis Jesus. So resistance to his theory is on a different order of magnitude. When it comes to the historicity of Jesus, almost no evidence exists and all of it is deeply compromised or problematic—no matter which side is right.
This means neither mythicists nor historicists can claim to be Darwin in that scenario (or Galileo or any other analog like that). What is astonishing is that historicists won’t even admit that. Even though it isn’t seriously disputable.
Has RFW weighed in? I read ‘Origins’ curious how she’d discuss historicity, and while that wasn’t the point of the book, it seemed like she was very careful never to assume historicity, with statements like “Paul is our earliest source for evidence of the Jesus movement”, where other scholars might say, “… for the life of Jesus.”
I haven’t checked Robin Faith Walsh’s exact words in each case, but by report she’s been asked that in interviews, and remains diplomatically vague as to my thesis but leans toward historicity, albeit without overconfident bombast. She’s avoided saying anything clear enough to warrant listing her here. But if you find any statement from her that would, do let me know.
Dr Carrier
You might want to add the name of Michel Onfray, the prolific French philosopher and atheist to the list of those scholars who take Mythicism seriously. The most relevant work is Theorie de Jesus. Biographie d’une idee. (Bouquins, 2023). Ibn Warraq
Thank you for the notice. But Onfrey doesn’t qualify for this list. It only contains “all those bona fide exerts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs,” and a mere degree in philosophy doesn’t count for that. This is the same reason, as I also note in the list, that “I do not list [Nanine] Charbonnel” either. But it’s still useful to know about them. Among philosophers one could also include Stephen Law, for example, as taking mythicism seriously. And there are others.
If you are interested, Chrissy Hanson just uploaded an insane bibliography of the Christ Myth Debate, and has a ton listed here that you don’t have.
https://www.academia.edu/122552862/THE_CHRIST_MYTH_THEORY_A_Bibliography_from_1970_to_the_Present
Thank you. I was familiar. And she appears to be updating her list, as I see new entries there.
Overall, it is “too complete” for my list—as in, it includes amateur and crank stuff, and things too old to qualify.
My list is specifically only of “bona fide experts—scholars with actual and relevant PhDs (many even sitting or emeritus professors) alive as of 2014.” Because only that is relevant to the view of the field today. I also document each statement of agreement that mythicism is plausible. Hansen is not doing that, either.
What would be very useful to me is this:
Start with the list beginning with “Allegro, John Marco” (Hansen annoyingly provided no page numbers, but if you PDF her document, you will find this list starts on page 16), look up the listed literature, and get me an actual quote and page number for any explicit statement that mythicism is at least plausible or to be taken seriously. Only that can merit inclusion on my list.
Obviously, skip everyone I already list; and skip anyone published before the 21st century (so, for example, don’t bother with Allegro); and of who remains, first confirm they have some relevant PhD (for example, Allegro fails to meet that criterion as well).
Then, find the work listed, and follow Hansen’s breadcrumb to pull a relevant quote from it, if there actually is one.
And do that all the way to the end of that list (at “Zhang, Wenjian,” whose work is too old to qualify, and whose credentials I cannot even discern). Her ensuing sections (3.2 and 3.3) can be skipped (everyone on it is either not qualified or already on my list).
With that data, I can update my list.
As I find time, I might work the list this way myself, but my initial impression is that most of her entries won’t make my list, so it is not a high priority for me. But I welcome anyone who puts the time in to check any of it for me themselves.
I realise that being a semi-retired sports- and newscaster with a podcast (as well as being one of the most annoying people on the internet) generally doesn’t count very far as qualifications in this area…
However, Keith Olbermann would not be high on my list of random media figures to say this this sort of thing in public.
(It’s only about 20 seconds.)
https://youtu.be/JatnjLQej78?si=ADOa-Wfim2RpHTFO&t=1380
Of course, he’s a professional contrarian who may be basing his opinion on the crankest of arguments – and he no longer has an on-screen career to preserve – but I still find it quite surprising in the current culture.
Are you aware of any other public figures who have even dared to say something like this?
That is indeed astonishing. But, alas, he lacks the qualifications required for the above list.
Heh heh, alas yes.
At 1:26:00 Dan McClellan says that we can’t be certain Jesus existed and he does not think the mythicist position is devoid of rationality but that it’s significantly less likely. https://www.youtube.com/live/QOpbfbRfnpQ?si=KCYEoyV6rIeCoVFo
But he goes on to say its arguments are “pretty silly” and that it is “overwhelmingly” unlikely. So I have to account this as not really taking mythicism seriously.
Kipp Davis has said the same thing, albeit disingenuously, but for the same reason: they are confusing “logical certainty” with “empirical certainty,” correctly disavowing the former (which I am sure you could even press Bart Ehrman to do) in order to defend the latter. They would thus say this of every historical fact. It’s therefore not a meaningful statement here. Because that is not the same thing as saying it is plausible to doubt historicity.
Greetings, Dr. Carrier. I hope you are well.
I just finished listening to Derek Lambert’s interview with Dr. Nina Livesey on MythVision. Dr. Livesey is a professor emerita of religious studies at the Oklahoma University College of Professional and Continuing Studies. (https://www.ou.edu/pacs/about/deans-and-faculty/nina-livesey) As I am sure you are aware, she is a “Paul mythicist.”
At 1:34:48 of the interview (https://youtu.be/YYQKui_H3_E?si=FSSsIJyaf1e4YWZ6&t=5688), Derek asks her opinion regarding the historicity of Jesus. Dr. Livesey agrees with Derek in that there is “probably a guy.” However she seems very open to the idea of Jesus mythicism and admits that she needs to study the modern scholarship. (In fact, she seemed to stop just short of mentioning your work.)
I hope this helps.
It does. Thank you. Added.
I came upon another that might make the list. Mark Craig, PhD in Philosophy from the University of Divinity, Melbourne. https://www.bbi.catholic.edu.au/faculty/mr-mark-craig/
In a 2014 paper ‘the Historical Jesus: Investigating the Unthinkable’, https://www.academia.edu/23158450/The_Historical_Jesus_Investigating_the_unthinkable, he concludes, “When one closely examines the available evidence gleaned from a variety of ancient sources and manuscripts, it appears incontrovertible that one cannot make a strong case for the existence of an historical Jesus. At best, it can be postulated there was a strong Christian cult that claimed the existence of a man called Jesus and this claim helped forge a whole new religious tradition in the ancient world.”
As for those like Ehrman who might be picky about his PhD being in philosophy, it may be worth noting that one of Ehrman’s own star collaborators, coauthors, and colleagues, Hugo Mendez, has a PhD in Linguistics from the University of Georgia, and it hasn’t stopped him from teaching at UNC’s department of religion or from producing solid work. Of course, in his case he has expertise in the relevant ancient languages, which I’m not sure Craig has.
Indeed. Ehrman is a hypocrite. But I have to play their game or else they dismiss the list altogether. So I can only include philosophy PhDs if they have a record of peer reviewed publications in biblical studies. Which I doubt this guy does because he is citing Freke and Gandy as authorities, which means he has no skill or knowledge in the field and doesn’t know how to do this. So he doesn’t qualify.
Note that a better candidate would be Stephen Law, who does know how to do at least what he does (which is epistemological rather than historical), but he doesn’t have a biblical studies publication record needed either.
Does Lloyd Geering not qualify?
Also, isn’t it unfair to call it Jesus mythicism when we don’t have a Hercules mythicism, why this special treatment?
We would indeed have (and call it) “Hercules mythicism” if most scholars in “Hercules studies” insisted Hercules existed.
As for Lloyd Geering, I’ve never heard of him. A quick check and I cannot ascertain that he has any relevant doctoral degree (honorary degrees don’t count). And I don’t immediately see anything about his opinions of historicity.
So, to get him listed, you need to provide me evidence of where he received a real doctoral degree and in what (whether PhD or DDiv or what have you) and a confirmable quotation where he concedes it is plausible Jesus didn’t exist at all (not “the Gospel Jesus didn’t exist,” but not even a mundane Jesus did). Better if he actually says that’s likely; but just enough to clearly indicate he takes seriously (and not flippantly) the possibility that he didn’t will suffice.
Radosław Czarnecki can be added to a list of scientists who do not believe in existence of real life Jesus.
He has a PHD in religious studies.
His Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/radek.czarnecki.39
That Facebook page has no usable information in regards to this matter.
So I need you to do two things:
(1) Find and cite verifiable evidence of where he received his PhD and in what field.
(2) Cite and quote where he states his clearest opinions on the historicity of Jesus.
Sorry i forgot.
Here is info about his PHD:
“Doktor religioznawstwa”
https://racjonalista.tv/author/radoslaw-czarnecki/
Here about his education, but no precise info about his PHD subject matter:
https://magazyndolnyslask.pl/radek-czarnecki/
i will try to find a quote.
in rationalista.tv, Grzegorz Roman and Radosław S. Czarnecki talk a lot about historicity of Jesus. Here (1) Grzegorz Roman summarizes their point of view:
“Jezus, chociaż dalej chyba razem zgodnie z twierdzimy, że jest to postać niehistoryczna na pół mityczna na wpół konceptualna, można powiedzieć wymyślona”
1 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3lNtMHl0vQ
Here (1) they talk about if Jesus was historical “Czy Jezus jest postacią historyczną”
2 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Roo-qJHF1GY
Very good. Thank you. There are some remaining issues:
First, you are quoting the host, Grzegorz Roman, not the scholar, Radosław Czarnecki. Now, the host says “we probably agree” with what he says, and Czarnecki doesn’t correct him or react negatively, so I think it’s safe to assume then that that is also his view, but a more direct quote would be helpful. Even that second video you posted is literally just Roman pontificating at Czarnecki who barely says anything. So at best it indicates that Czarnecki takes Roman’s position seriously. That’s enough to say that. But not enough to confirm Czarnecki thinks it likely rather than only plausible. So this is enough to report the latter but not the former.
Also, does Grzegorz Roman have a relevant PhD? Because this would be a direct quote of him, and I could add that for sure. The name is so common I couldn’t find any cv for him. I could not locate such data about him in any of the Polish the rationalist sites he frequents or edits either. If you can find something that qualifies him let me know.
Just for the record, Roman says (in the first video, using Google translate from the YouTube autotranscript): “we maintain that this is a non-historical figure—semi-mythical and semi-conceptual, one might say invented—but that is not what we wish to discuss today; not Jesus and his historicity“ but how the New Testament depicts him (3:58–4:15), and (in the second video, same): “from these many figures, a single composite character emerged—though here, again, it is a conceptual figure” (24:50–60) and “the very demand to prove the existence of this Jesus as a historical figure is, in itself, nonsensical” (25:15–20) and “we are not saying that such events never occurred at all; rather, we wish to continue by stating that while someone of that type—or indeed, many such people—likely existed, the specific figure we are discussing today is a composite figure, a synthesis of two—or perhaps several, even a dozen or so—individuals” (34:31–49).
Czarnecki sits there listening and never raises an objection and occasionally nods slightly. But he never says any of this himself.
You can use auto translate, but i made a short summary with some explanations about Polish academy. He’s got (1,2):
-masters degree in natural sciences (natural sciences/ geography) in natural sciences department
-masters degree in philosophy/history department (filozofia/historia)
-finished “studium podyplomowe” level studies in ethics and religious sciences (z etyki i religioznawstwa)
studium podyplomowe = studies for people with master’s degree – something between a masters level and PHD level studies
-PHD in religious studies – he did study in philosophy department of Wrocław University (Wydział Filozoficzny Uniwersytetu Wrocławskiego)
All his studies in Wrocław University (Uniwersytet Wrocławski)
-Polish masters degree studies are 5 year studies
-Polish PHD studies are similar to everywhere but master’s degree or engineer degree required.
-studium podyplomowe = studies for people with master’s degree – something between a masters level and PHD level studies
1 – https://racjonalista.tv/author/radoslaw-czarnecki/
2 – https://magazyndolnyslask.pl/radek-czarnecki/
Yes. Good. I found all that too. Thank you.
I’ll add Czarnecki with the caveats in my last comment (and see there about whether you can hunt down any creds for Roman).
This list is sadly full of errors and misrepresentation. Herman Detering for example, was for a very short time a Pastor in the Dutch Reformed Church before he left them and then left Christianity all together. To describe him as a Life-Long Pastor is simply false.
Carl Ruck, confessed that all of human life is a mythical construct. He believes that every person constructs their own reality. So Jesus is mythical in the same way Dionysius is or any other person of History.
While Richard may not post this comment, it is difficult to see how this list is a credible list of historians. Scholars sure, but there are literally millions of scholars in the world. That word simply means – one with a degree.
There is not a single Professor of Ancient History in this list.
But Richard, there is an Australian Professor in Ancient History who challenged the idea behind your list in 2014. And he is yet to be proven wrong. Here is the link:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-17/dickson-ill-eat-a-page-from-my-bible-if-jesus-didnt-exist/5820620
Why don’t you take up the challange???
This is funny. You think any of this has any relevance to the list or its purpose? You can only then be looking for excuses to deny reality.
I won’t query your claims. They are questionable. But they don’t matter to whether these are “scholars with actual and relevant PhDs (many even sitting or emeritus professors) alive as of 2014” who agree it is at least plausible Jesus didn’t exist. A list that is nearing now 50 members (not just the two you throw shade on); and several have general or specialist degrees in ancient history (although nice job declaring all religious and biblical studies degrees to be unqualified).
So there is no point in addressing your claims even if they were true exactly as written (and not distortions of reality).
As for John Dickson, he has never published any reply to any peer reviewed study of the historicity of Jesus. You yourself cite an assertion that ignores or predates all peer reviewed studies on the historicity of Jesus. Dickson critiques Morris (who isn’t even on my list) as referencing my study, but never mentions any evidence or arguments from my study. And Lataster corroborated my study under peer review years later; and almost all the people on my list post-date this silly assertion from Dickson, a Christian apologist. And indeed, that refutes Dickson, who claimed no one would believe this in the field: well, almost fifty do now. His prediction was refuted. By this very list.
How on earth do you think this decade-old apologetical polemic from Dickson against Morris is at all relevant here? You clearly can’t be all that interested in what is actually true.
The difficulty here Richard is you don’t qualify yourself. Your PHD in Ancient History doesn’t qualify you as an Ancient Historian. As you well know, you’ve never been employed by a University in the field, and your Bayesian approach to historical study has been discredited by many experts in the field.
Your ranking of historical data based on a numerical system you designed is not supported by any Peer reviews by anyone in the field who has been employed in a University as a Professor in the field either.
The list of almost 50 you cite doesn’t include a single Professor of Ancient History who agrees with you in your assertion that Jesus is a mythical figure.
I haven’t dismissed any credentials but one of the many qualifications I hold is in Computers, I completed a Diploma in Computer Studies in 1995. But that doesn’t make my opinion on Artificial Intelligence that of an expert, I can build a computer mainframe from scratch. But that’s not relevant to Artificial Intelligence. Just like a PHD in Ancient Philosophy doesn’t mean a person is an expert in Ancient History.
I do have a question for you – do you think Socrates is also a mythical person?
That is literally the opposite of the case. The entire point of receiving a PhD, especially from an Ivy League school, is to certify that one is qualified in the field. It’s literally the only official certification of that fact that exists. My PhD majors were Roman-era philosophy, religion, historiography, and history. My dissertation was in ancient history, philosophy and religion (pagan and Christian). My ancient languages were Greek and Latin, the languages of all ancient Christian sources. There is really no more apt qualification to have for studying the historicity of a religious leader in the early Roman Empire. As any real expert could tell you.
Professorships are a way to use and apply your cert. It is not the way to gain the cert. That has already happened. Another way to apply your cert is to continue publishing peer-reviewed studies in the fields you have expertise in. Which I do.
Everything else is just you making up bullshit excuses, again, to deny reality rather than accept it (the same old ones other liars and delusionoids fabricate). Which means you don’t care about what’s true. You only care about avoiding it. Which means you have nothing to contribute here.
I don’t know what that refers to. I didn’t design Bayes’ Theorem nor was I the first to publish a peer-reviewed study applying it to history. There have since been numerous more such studies, many even citing my study. I give a short list up to 2025 in Obsolete Paradigm, 156–57. There I list some twenty peer-reviewed studies other than mine concurring, and that’s not even a complete list.
Several are professors of ancient history, current or retired. Most are professors of ancient Christian history or literature (which is in your analogy having a Diploma in AI Studies, kind of refuting your dumb analogy from the go). Which is even more qualified than just “ancient history.” Most of the rest are professors of theology, divinity, or religious studies like most historicists are…so, good one denouncing the credentials of most scholars defending the historicity of Jesus—I think that counts here as an own goal for you.
I am betting you have none of these qualifications. So you appear to be only a bitter loser with no relevant knowledge here.
Demonstrating you are an idiot and just lazily trolling here like a child, and have studied not a single aspect of this issue, I discuss Socrates in my 2014 and 2025 peer-reviewed studies, and extensively explain why we can be certain he was historical, and that we have none of the evidence convincing us of that for Jesus. That you don’t know this proves you literally don’t know what you are talking about. So you should shut up until you do. Until then, the adults are talking.
Also your claim about Lataster is a huge overstatement. He doesn’t corroborate your work. He criticises your arguments and method, he rejects your Bayesian approach, which evaluates the evidence based on pre-suppositions, and he does not affirm your conclusions. He does take you seriously and is sympathetic to your approach, but he has never endorsed or corroborated your work.
If you can demonstrate otherwise please do.
All of those statements are false, Jason. Lataster uses my method, comes to the same ultimate conclusion of doubt, and endorses my work as triumphing over its only competitors, the pop market books by Ehrman and Casey that his study compares mine to.
So, I guess you aren’t a religious man. You clearly don’t believe bearing false witness is immoral. You are just an immoral person.
As you well know, nothing I wrote was false. I realise you commonly use this kind of tactic against people who disagree with you. Having read your blogs on the debates you have held, your dismissal of others based on your moral judgement of their approach is consistent with your approach here.
Your conclusion is far more than doubt in the existence of Jesus as a historical person, you argue Jesus was a mythical figure. To quote you “The probability Jesus existed is low… we can conclude with confidence that Jesus probably did not exist.” That is very different to Lataster.
Lataster doesn’t use your method he critiques it. At best he agrees that mythicism is a viable argument, but not proven, that is very different to “we can conclude with confidence”. Lataster doesn’t corroborate your conclusions.
To quote Lataster from his book referring to your work he writes, “agreement on methods doesn’t imply agreement on conclusions.”
While he accepts there is some value to the Bayesian Method he rejects your use of the Bayesian Priors you create, in particular your claim of objectivity.
I quote “I don’t think the problem is Carrier’s mathematics, so much as his possible overestimation of the ‘objectivity’… It is a subjective probability…”
Making character accusations isn’t evidence, you will note that isn’t my approach. As I said in my previous comment, if you can demonstrate why what I stated isn’t the case, please do so. I am interested to hear why you think he corroborates you work.
All of those statements were false, Jason.
Repeating them doesn’t make them true. And distracting wordwalls doesn’t trick our readers into forgetting what just happened.
You are just panic-wheelspinning now.
Case in point:
You have falsely conflated Bayesian method (“my method”) with the conclusion (those are not the same things, yet you claimed Lataster rejected my “method”); and you have falsely conflated degrees of variance in the same conclusion (and used that fallacy to falsely claim Lataster rejected my “conclusion”).
Lataster concludes the historicity of Jesus should be doubted, the same conclusion I reach. I find the probability slightly lower than he does. That’s our only difference. And it’s a trivial question of degree, since he does not actually say my results are wrong only that he does not need to defend them to reach the same conclusion.
You have lied up and down about what our differences are. That’s bearing false witness. You are a liar. And that makes you an immoral person. And you won’t apologize or correct any of your lies. Because you are an immoral person.
Here is the truth (all quotes from Lataster’s study):
And:
And:
And:
(There is a reason my latest book is The Obsolete Paradigm of a Historical Jesus)
And:
And:
In other words, he does not question my results at all, but shows that even if we accept irrational attempts to redo them, my conclusion still follows. He says he “doesn’t think” we should “strike this all” and replace it with “even odds.” He is only doing so to prove how solid my conclusions are by showing that even if we lighten them we still get the same result.
And Lataster devotes two whole sections to defending my Bayesian methodology as correct and historians wrong not to adopt it (pp. 162–70 and pp. 170–73), concluding that “Bayesian thinking conforms to good historiography” and “Anyone who rejects a Bayesian or probabilistic approach to history or epistemology is literally rejecting a more reasoned and transparent approach to history” (p. 169).
So, you lied.
Putting aside your usual tactic of personal denigration, as I pointed out, you overstate what Lataster argues.
As you point out (after I asked you to) he agrees that Bayesian methodology is a legitimate approach (many other scholars have published their disagreement, but this is about the one who supports some of your approach), however he doesn’t corroborate your Bayesian Priors when it comes to your argument that Jesus is a mythical figure and not a person of history. Something the quotes of his I put in my previous comment demonstrate.
Your final quote of Lataster also demonstrates this when he says: “I wish to re-do the calculations with figures that further advantage historicity. Largely because many will disagree with Carrier’s low prior probability for historicity, even if they do not do so on rational grounds” (p. 437)
As Lataster points out, he would like to redo your Bayesian Priors himself to arrive at a conclusion that further advantages historicity.
You overstate his support. I am sure you will come back with more personal denigrations, but it is pretty straight forward.
I could list the scholars who oppose your approach, and who have written conclusive critiques, from Daniel Gullotta to Maurice Casey.
Um. Jason. You just quoted Lataster agreeing with me: he is saying the “re-do” he did was “not rationally grounded,” not that he agreed with those re-does, but that he disagees with them. That’s agreeing with me.
You are now lying about what he said after even printing the very words showing him saying the opposite.
Just as I predicted. You will never correct these lies and never apologize for them. You will just keep repeating them. Perhaps because you are a Christian? Because if so, then your religion has corrupted you into worshiping the Anti-Christ. You are his now. Damned and doomed.
The rest of us live in reality and respond to evidence. Whoever corrupted you into becoming the immoral person you now are, you have chosen not to live in reality or respond to evidence.
And that’s now the story of you.
From a person who doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ, but does believe in the anti-Christ?
That’s a bit of a sad response. ignore and accuse.
Over and Out.
Lol. You evidently didn’t read the article I linked you to. Then you’d understand.
But nice try attempting a false tu quoque fallacy (I actually proved my point, you are the one evading it), and once again saying something irrelevant to distract from what actually happened.
I get it. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
I read the article, I wasn’t sure you were being serious, it reads like a series of misrepresentations of Christian theology and practice, pretty similar to most of your anti-Christian pejorative.
You take passages out of context, misrepresent Jesus teachings equating synagogues and churches (churches didn’t exist when Jesus spoke those words for a start), your total exagération of Jesus’s teachings on violence and responding to agression, let alone your bizarre extension of this into rape.
Your article was bizarre and that’s being kind. So as I tend to avoid personal and pejorative attacks as argument, which you embrace, I kept it simple.
If you read the article, you would know whether I was being serious. Because the article goes out of its way to literally explain that.
Your previous dishonesty therefore makes me suspicious that you lied again just now and did not read the article. You just rage skimmed it rather than paid attention to its thesis and the relevance of its thesis to your persistent dishonesty here.
This is just more eviodence of your refusal to take any of this seriously and lie your way out of every uncomfortable fact and confrontation.
You are, as proved, an immoral person. And your religion did this to you. It corrupted your character and made you into an arrogant, prideful liar. A Pharisee. A whitewashed tomb. And you refuse to see it. Because Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. And you have been ever so seduced by Satan’s light.
Did you so much as open the book? Carrier has this refrain of “once you put the context back in” and, well…
Not even context in general, but the very sentence preceding it on the first random thing I checked.
Note the word “possible.” Now go and read his actual findings.
My extensive quotations already tell you what happens there. So you can’t quote-mine and misread sentences in English to overcome numerous explicit quotations to the contrary.
That’s apologetics. Evasion and lies. Not serious critique.
Yes, I read it years ago. It doesn’t square with Jason’s representation one bit. But I was more shocked than perhaps I should’ve been that the sentence itself wasn’t just part of a greater whole in the book, but that the immediate surrounding context, most notably the directly preceding paragraph, doesn’t leave any room for misinterpretation.
Richard, it might be worth anticipating the objection that I can hear the Ehrman’s of the world already shouting when coming upon this list: “you can always find experts who disagree with the consensus,” as illustrated by pointing to large lists of scientists opposing widely accepted positions in other fields. Like what happened during Covid, where hundreds or thousands of scientists or doctors signed petitions that mRNA vaccines shouldn’t be used yet, even though such a list of experts was obviously stupid and misleading, and didn’t override the consensus of medical science on their safety and efficacy.
(obviously, even raising this particular objection would be moving the goal post, since the original claim about the Celestial Jesus model was that none existed lol).
I think it could be helpful for general readers as well, unfamiliar with historical philosophy and epistemology more generally, by noting that raw numbers of experts can make sense relative to the size of the field and the problematic nature of the evidence in ancient history opposed to say, chemistry or aeronautical engineering. Since we’re dealing with a field where the models and hypotheses are explaining ambiguous data, a list of 50 scholars saying it should be taken seriously is more meaningful than say 50 scientists saying common ancestry with chimpanzees is false.
In ancient history, where there are far fewer active scholars worldwide, fifty specialists supporting (even if not agreeing with) a minority hypothesis can represent a more meaningful opinion to take into account, especially given the low quality/quantity nature of the evidence.
Any thoughts on this matter? I think noting such an epistemological point in the main text of the article could be beneficial, especially as the list grows it will have more eyes on it, and thus, more naysayers trying to say well the list doesn’t matter anyway.
That’s covered at the end: in “Further Links of Interest” you will notice an article on the argument from consensus. That covers your point.
In truth, most people already do know this (that history is vastly less secure than science and has far fewer experts and almost all of them biased Christian apologists). When someone acts like they don’t, they are almost always being disingenuous. And you can’t correct someone being disingenuous by erroneously taking them seriously.
But for the scant few people left who really, somehow, sincerely and actually, don’t already know this, my consensus article covers it. But now that this list has grown, I will emphasize it now at your suggestion.
Have you considered getting these people to a sign a letter? Media might cover such a letter.
Also I see Adair missing from the list.
Alas, no. Media doesn’t care about this subject; they barely even understand what the dispute is. And letters are almost always useless.
But they are also too political now. It’s one thing to admit something in public that your peers and colleagues abhor; it’s another to shove their face in it with an attack letter (as that’s how apologists and dogmatists will perceive it).
It would also be dismissed as self-serving if I organized such a letter. It can only have any effect at all (if any at all) if it was spontaneously generated by a group of scholars who’ve actually had the last straw of the field’s dogmatism and are willing to make enemies saying so. But I encounter the opposite usually. When Davies was alive he kept his support quiet to avoid rocking the boat and taking on all the heat that would generate. I suspect this is where most scholars are. The field is a panopticon ready to punish anyone who offends its dogmas too egregiously, and everyone knows that—or believes it, even if it isn’t true. And perception is reality.
As for Adair, he is doing great work in the field, under peer review even, but he falls just short of the list criteria here (his PhD is not adjacent). Excluding him isn’t a criticism. It’s simply avoiding the straw man arguments that will ensure from critics offended that this list exists. They will then ignore all the other names, and claim I am naming people outside the field to dismiss the entire list. I won’t let them deploy that fallacy. So my criteria are overly strict.