There are two new books assessing the intersection of religion and astrophysics. Both are fantastic reads. First is Aliens and Religion: Where Two Worlds Collide, by Jonathan MS Pearce and Aaron Adair (Onus 2023), which explores the philosophical problems that “outer space” and the prospect of it being inhabited pose for all religions. But on its heels is another (due in July, which you can pre-order; I’ve looked through an advanced copy): Religion and Outer Space, an anthology edited by Eric Michael Mazur and Sarah McFarland Taylor (Routledge 2023), which explores the historical intersection of those two things. That’s what I’ll be talking about today.
Check out its whole table of contents. Some great stuff in there. But most pertinent to my latest work is its keynote chapter, “Outer Space in Ancient Jewish and Christian Literature” by Catherine Hezser, a renowned scholar of ancient Judaism (she has written a plethora of fantastic academic monographs on that subject). This chapter’s title alone seals the deal: it’s official, people—in ancient parlance heaven means outer space. As I wrote in Jesus from Outer Space (Pitchstone 2020):
Key to [understanding the real origins of Christianity] is a fact not often known to the public: that the earliest Christians taught Jesus came from outer space. Not in a fully modern sense, but in an ancient sense. By the time of Christianity, Judaism had long incorporated what was then “modern science,” which taught that multiple spheres of heaven physically surrounded the earth, [usually even] with a spherical earth at the center, and that those heavenly realms were held up not by pillars as in more ancient teachings, but by gaseous or ether-filled spaces, extending all the way to the moon and beyond. All of that encompassed what we today mean by outer space. So the most accurate English translation of words that meant “the heavens” in antiquity is quite simply “outer space.”
Of course, the ancient people of Judea didn’t believe in an extraterrestrial vacuum (some then did, just not Jewish theologians). But that’s not what even we mean by “outer space.” We mean everything above Earth‘s atmosphere, all the space “out there.” And that’s what they believed too. Many imagined a thinner kind of material occupied the remainder of the universe, whether some kind of invisible fire or ether, notions we wouldn’t even abandon ourselves until the end the nineteenth century. And they imagined creatures of various kinds lived in every level thereof—which we would call space aliens today. Which only means they had different beliefs than we do about what exactly was in outer space. But they certainly had the same conception we do of what was outer space.
So we ought to refer to their ideas just as they would have understood them, and not obscure their beliefs behind inaccuracies. The modern idea of “heaven” is of an other-dimensional space that has no physical location inside our universe—and that idea bears no resemblance at all to what they believed back then. So “heaven” is an inaccurate and indeed misleading translation today. “Outer space” is much closer to what their real beliefs were. And this is exactly the point of [my] book’s title: when we translate the words of the earliest Christians to better reflect what they were actually saying, things look very different than you might have assumed.
Hence as I have noted for a while now:
The most accurate description of earliest Christian thought is that Jesus was an angelic extraterrestrial, who descended from outer space to become a man, teach the gospel, suffer an atoning death, and rise again to return to his throne among the stars, even more powerful than before.
And “on these facts most leading scholars agree.” Even, yes, Bart Ehrman himself. It’s pretty mainstream now (see Chrissy Hansen on the Pre-Existent Jesus; and further scholarship cited by Hansen and Ehrman; and by myself, in OHJ, Element 10, Ch. 4). Which opens up a new possibility for understanding how Christianity really began:
[W]hat if, in fact, Jesus was originally thought to have resided only in outer space? To never have visited Earth at all? What if even his incarnation and death were celestial events? We all agree the Christians originally believed Jesus was from outer space. So the only question is, in the original creed, how far did they think he actually descended from there to effect his cosmic sacrifice?
There is no reasonable doubt that the first Christians believed Jesus came from outer space, that he was an extreterrestrial who had lived there from the dawn of time, and who returned to live there again, after his most crucial existential deed was done: saving the human race from itself (or, at least, from their own creator’s bizarre wrath). The possibility that Jesus carried out that deed in outer space as well is simply the most likely alternative. There are others, of course—from the mainstream conclusion “he carried it out in Palestine” to the not-so-mainstream conclusion “he carried it out in the lost Garden of Eden,” somewhere in the distant East perhaps. But when we look at where ancient Jews typically thought great cosmos-changing historical events took place, the answer is: outer space.
Just think of Satan’s rebellion (which Jesus’s cosmic deed was even designed to reverse), or even the original sin of Adam and Eve: in apocryphal Jewish scriptures heeded as fact even by Paul himself, the Garden of Eden, from whose soil Adam was made and in which he and Eve sinned, was in outer space, and was the actual place from where they, too, would be cast down to Earth, like Satan, in a literal fall from heaven, to the inferior gardens of the world below, mere imperfect copies of the true Garden above—later to be returned to the one in outer space upon their deaths, where in legend Adam and Eve are in fact buried. This is simply the most viable alternative to the traditional understanding of what Christians thought happened with Jesus. So if that traditional understanding falls into question, the next most likely thing is this.
That is why I conclude it’s more likely Jesus was crucified and buried in outer space: once we recognize (1) that Paul, and the authors of 1 Clement, Hebrews, even 1 Peter—all Christian literature published in its first generation—show no knowledge of Jesus ever even having been on Earth, (2) and so evidently did other early sources (apart from its author’s adaptations of Gospel material, even the story told in the book of Acts seems to have no such knowledge; and in some early literature we find hints of other Christians concurring: see OHJ, Chs. 9 and 8, respectively; while the Gospels appear to be wildly mythical, not personal memoirs or researched histories: Ibid. Ch. 10; see also, e.g., Mark’s Use of Paul’s Epistles, Why Did Mark Invent an Empty Tomb?, and My Rank-Raglan Scoring for Osiris), and (3) that the earliest sources seem consistently to think the only way anyone could know of Jesus having been crucified and buried at all is by finding secret messages in Scripture and being told so by divine Revelation (Romans 16, Romans 10, Galatians 1, even 1 Corinthians 15), when we realize all that, we must conclude they probably must have thought those things happened somewhere out of human view. And background facts establish the most usual place for such hidden but divinely world-changing events is, indeed, outer space. It was moved to Jerusalem (or, according to a variant of Eastern Christianity documented in the Talmud, Lydda: On the Historicity of Jesus, Ch. 8.1) after the Jewish War, when following popular fashion in Euhemerizing their divine man served a newly needed purpose: to reconstitute the faith after its failure to predict the world would then end, and kick that can down the road a bit.
But set that aside. Let’s pretend we have sufficient evidence to be sure Jesus really did exist and was witnessed executed and buried in Palestine under Pontius Pilate, as all faith-based creeds would have it (even though we don’t). It still follows that his devoted followers launched a religion around his ministry almost immediately after his death that preached he was an extraterrestrial, only visiting Earth briefly in a manufactured mortal body, like an environment suit for exploring Earth, which he cast off on his death, hopping back into his real, extraterrestrial body to ascend back to his abodes in space, to return from space again someday ahead of legions of alien invaders under his command. Jesus, quite simply, was a space alien. Or so his first followers taught.
The usual anachronistic objections follow. “No one said Jesus came from outer space.” Yes, they did. “Heaven is not located in outer space.” Yes it was—back then. Our notion of heaven being in another dimension is a modern idea; no such concepts existed in antiquity. To them there was only one world, just the Earth and the space below it (the underworld) and the space beyond it—literally “outer” space, a.k.a. “the heavens.” But surely being from heaven is not the same thing as being a space alien—after all, space aliens are (presumably) naturally evolved animals like us, not God’s angels. Not back then. Back then, to Christians, all creatures were made by God, and creatures in the heavens were greater in glory. And in fact, beyond the moon, they were the perfect agents of God’s will, his servants, his messangers, a.k.a. “angels” (the background facts establishing all this are extensive: OHJ, Elements 34-42, Ch. 5).
Even Satan and his demons were extreterrestrials, in the understanding of that time not residing in the underworld (that was a Medieval retcon of what began as their predicted fates in the future, not the present), but rather in the sky, beyond what we now know to be the atmosphere, occupying the vast space between Earth and the moon—essentially living in castles and gardens flying aloft, in low and high orbit (as many sources attest, Ibid.). Possibly, in fact, they were regarded as living on the Moon, that being the “planet” of the corrupt lower sphere or “firmament” holding up the purer heavens above, each occupied by yet another “planet,” including at one level—it varied which—the Sun (Ibid.). Plutarch, for example, attests the Moon as the abode of the dead, prior to any ascension to greater status that is their due (see his essay On the Face in the Orb of the Moon).
Alas, no extant source outright says this—they just mention Satan and his dark lords and minions (the legion of angels that fell with him, and their progeny, the demons) residing in the sky or firmament, presumably occupying castles and abodes there, but where precisely (whether upon magical clouds or on the surface of the moon) is unclear. But either way, that’s where they live, and battle, and contend for power; and it’s the base of operations from which they launch their machinations upon Earth below. The space they occupy up there was vaster than we now know the atmosphere to be; and although many of the ancients imagined the atmosphere (hence “the sky”) indeed extended all the way to the moon, that still means they were imagining what we mean today by “outer space,” whether filled with air or some other breathable gas. They ruled not merely from the skies, but from low and high orbit. And above them, the angels occupied their own abodes, whether in divinely constructed space stations, or upon the various planets.
So it was space aliens, all the way up and down the line. Satan? Space alien. Michael? Space alien. Jesus? Space alien. By living beyond the Earth, they were literally extra-terrestrials. That is not undone by their being created by God, or serving him (or battling him). That is not undone by their being immortal superbeings. They are still extraterrestrials. And their abodes are still outer space. Notably, the more-or-less-godless Epicureans, one of the few intellectual groups to then propose outer space was a vacuum (getting yet one more of many more predictions right than any ancient holy text can claim), made this idea even more explicit, proposing that “the gods” were just advanced extreterrestrials—otherwise ordinary beings like us—living on other planets orbiting (or orbited by) distant stars, and we just receive in our sleep and trance states images of them that they transmit, like a cosmic television broadcast. The more pious differed only in not countenancing such a godless narrative—for them, aliens were superbeings, the created host of the One True God, and space was not a vacuum, but a livable, occupiable, if more rarefied and perfect place God’s creatures can reside, and stars were not distant worlds, but the lamps of the highest heaven, perhaps even angels.
And now Hezser confirms my take: ancient Jewish and Christian believers “clearly differentiated between life on earth and outer space as another sphere that surrounded them” and thus “identified outer space with the heavens.” She identifies apocalyptic heavenly ascent narratives (from Revelation and the Ascension of Isaiah to various other “ascent to heavens” narratives of the likes of Enoch or Ezra, or even as alluded to by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12) as stories of “travellers to outer space” who “enjoy the privilege of seeing things that ordinary humans cannot and telling others of their experiences,” which tales including “space travelling angels and humans.” She says Revelation 12 depicts a “space war,” and tales of Satan’s prior war in heaven would be such as well. And “while ancient readers and audiences may have considered human space travellers to possess superhuman qualities, the Jewish and Christian authors of the texts present them as intermediaries between the known human and the unknown divine spheres.”
Hezser explains how “Ancient Jewish and Christian views of outer space” differed from our modern views today, but this does not change the fact of what part of the universe they were imagining the contents and qualities of. When anyone came from heaven, they descended physically from above, flying great distances down to Earth. When anyone visited heaven, they flew into and above the sky into the great beyond, physically moving upward and seeing, and reporting, what’s in outer space—in human myth, the earliest astronauts. The Epicurean wit Lucian would poke fun of this whole idea by imagining a ship sailing into space to land on the moon—the first “space ship” in human imagination (unless we include Ezekiel’s chariot, although that appears to have been, actually, just another flying creature).
As Hezser points out, in all these narratives we find every level of outer space is occupied by places to stand or sit or reside, whether castles or gardens or temples or other kinds of abode. And the means by which mortals get to fly into outer space vary, from being carried by angels (fallen angels and their demons could obviously also serve) to simply being blown up there by a powerful wind (as happens to Enoch). Sometimes, a literal ladder is found (magical or otherwise) that one could just climb (making literal an idea that began only in imagination). We also know flying was one of the claimed powers of human magic (not only in Christian literature depicting the magician Simon demonstrating the point, but all across ancient references to magic, as discussed in Arcana Mundi, Magic in the Ancient Greek World, and Daughters of Hecate). And Elijah flies into heaven by divine miracle (on either a ghostly horse-and-chariot or a whirlwind).
Hezser recounts how in Talmudic legend, at least four Rabbis found a way to fly into space (visiting the Garden of Eden there) in some manner resembling Elijah’s, and all but one were driven mad by the experience (in Lovecraftian fashion), or simply abandoned Judaism—evidently having seen things there not compatible with Jewish belief. Space journeys could also be direct physical ascents or psychic adventures, the soul leaving the body and flying into space on its own, something akin to astral projection in modern spiritualist lore. Paul was unsure which occurred in the account he relates—possibly, I suspect, because he did not believe in a soul separable from the body, a common but not universal view among Jewish intellectuals (see my discussion in “the Spiritual Body” in The Empty Tomb), but that he could not be sure which was the case tells us he knew both kinds of space-traveler tales (and that his readers could be on either side of the matter).
So this isn’t just some fancy of my own contrivance. It’s official now: Jesus came from outer space. Jesus is an extraterrestrial. As is God, who resides on a distant planet or space station. And ascending heroes of Jewish legend are astronauts. And Jesus, our alien overlord, visited Earth (or at least the lower realm of the firmament) in a disposable environment suit. And these things are all true of early Jewish and Christian belief regardless whether Jesus existed or didn’t. But realizing all this does make the possibility that he didn’t more credible. Because it is a key component of our background knowledge that indeed changes our estimates of what’s likely or plausible in ancient imagination.





I do get tired of the modern christian nonsense of inventing their vague god/jesus, one that is now outside of space/time, etc. It is a convenient invention to replace the god/messiah they claim to follow, since that one isnt’ very palatable to modern tastes.
A slogan of the Church of the Subgenius is “JHVH-1 is a Space Alien and Still Threatens this Planet.” CoS will ordain anyone (for a fee) and also offers doctorate degrees (likewise).
I actually have two friends who are ordained in CoSG. I’m surprised nobody has suggested that Allah is a space alien since the Kabaa contains a meteor and the circumambulation is based off the sun or something to that effect.
The connection between religious experiences and the UFO phenomenon is very interesting.
Zechariah Sitchin already interpreted the Sumerian stories as aliens creating mankind to mine gold, so literally bringing it from the underworld to surface and maybe to heaven (which I think is actually allegorical). The Fatima apparitions also have lights moving in a way similar to so many other UFO accounts. And then there’s Christian fundamentalists like Betty Andreasson that get abducted by Grey aliens and interpret these beings as angels.
All nonsense of course.
As long as you assume that only mainstream views can be true and esoteric ones are false, you will think that.
What I stated is not an assumption. It’s a rational evidence-based conclusion.
And I adopt no such general principle. Indeed it’s hilarious you would even attempt to make such a false accusation—I’m the guy who very infamously challenges several mainstream views.
“I’m the guy who very infamously challenges several mainstream views.” This is true and I admire you for that but you also accept many mainstream ideas that are actually wrong, and this can only be because you didn’t engage with the literature from the alternative side.
It’s actually not hard to find extraordinary evidence for so-called extraordinary claims and UFO researchers provide this evidence.
I advise starting with Allen Hynek, his first books establish ufology as a discipline worthy of scientific inquiry, while also refuting the conclusions taken by Project Blue Book and showing the flaws in the Condon Committee.
No, they don’t. UFOs are just unidentified, not aliens. All the evidence for aliens is bogus. It’s not extraordinary at all. I’ve checked. Just like I check other mainstream claims that get widely questioned. If the evidence holds up, I find out. If it doesn’t, I find that out too.
You just lack the critical thinking skills or will to realize this.
You need to absorb the lessons in:
UFOs Are Not That Remarkable
The Scary Truth about Critical Thinking
From Lead Codices to Mummy Gospels: Essential Links on Dubious Tales
A Vital Primer on Media Literacy
Like I said you clearly didn’t look enough at the evidence, which comes also for extraterrestrial beings not just for flying objects. It is even coming out right now with the new whistle-blower Grusch, yet you’re ignoring it just like you do the UFO literature, while accusing me of lacking critical thinking.
Falling for guys like that is one of the problems you are suffering from. Once random loons with no evidence equals evidence, you’ve lost all capacity for critical thought.
You are completely right in your theories, and everything what you are saying.
Regardless of what your naive critics or ”evidence” seekers thinks. It is not so important these days what people thinks, but more what and how they feel.
There are also relations with the UFO related phenomena between death and rebirth, and what happens after death , what people who’ve been dead, but returns to life for instance have met and seen on the other side.
And what appears to be recycling of souls.
Earth is therfor a school.
And people are here to learn.
But not much have been learned. Instead it is all moving backwards, since the 80’s.
And then everything what critics have to rant about UFO’s, UAP’s or whatever is just nonsense …
and all their constant talking about evidence this or evidence that, It is just on such extremelly naive level that is almost schocking.
And there is such fixation about techology and physics all the time that these people, traditional scientists, critics etc , … are getting further and further away from the real important things within the UFO subject, and what it’s all actually about.
And no… UFO’s are NOT about, little green men’ ”Communism”, or being attacked by a higher force
But the human species is of course searching confrontation, ”a threat”, or ”communism” in everything different, and also searching for it in its own diapers if necessary …
One could therefor start to wonder if the sceptisism that is so widely spread around the world in itself was initially actually planted inside the human mindset.
Just in the same way why most women are afraid of rats, or snakes…
Now why is that?
Have anyone thought about?
So the critisism is perhaps having a meaning, at the same time it is completely absurd and silly.
And also maybe the sceptisism have been planted within the human psyche, simply because we are supposed to have ”a free will”.
According to the Bible.
In any case all this constant talking talking about evidence is a complete suicide..
It is just to take a look right now what is going on around in the world, to see how the ”cave man” is still acting, and who the countries leaders are. Right?
And then indirectly … how did all went with the human species ”free will” then?..
Well … not really great.
Then also with the hundreds or millions of global evidence within the UFO subject, crop circles or whatever …
where it is just there in front of the eyes…
But still it is not being taken seriously.
it is the sceptisism that people should be sceptic about.
Not the other way round.
And no…. it is not about technology, ”rivets” on space crafts etc etc … or any other grown up 5-year old man’s naive wet fantasy. Not even about ”aliens”.
This all goes very very much far beyond anything what the human species, up to this day, is capable to take in and to understand, with it’s – after thousands of years of so called ”evolution”, still violent and destructive egoistic agenda.
And no. I am not of American or English heritage.
Why does anyone say that no one has evidence that Jesus was crucified on earth when some people claim to have his bones in a reliquary? And the Bible has 3 witnessed accounts. Do those accounts count for nothing?
BTW, I DO BELIEVE JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED, DIED, WAS BURIED AND ROSE AGAIN♥️🙏✝️
All the physical evidence is faked. You can find this out with any sound inquiry for any specific example (see my Primer on Actually Doing Your Own Research for advice on how to avoid being tricked).
And there are no eyewitness accounts of the earthly Jesus. The Gospels were neither written by witnesses, nor anyone who knew any witnesses, and were written in a foreign land and language, a lifetime after the events they claim to relate. On this see any mainstream college textbook on the New Testament (like this one).
Paul is our only eyewitness, and he never mentions Jesus ever being on Earth. His only encounters with Jesus were celestial, and imaginary (they take place solely in his mind). On this see my peer reviewed study On the Historicity of Jesus (or start with my colloquial summary, Jesus from Outer Space).
If they do have his bones, it contradicts the stories in the Gospel (but not how Paul envisions Resurrection if you take a historical view of Jesus).
That’s also worth pointing out: on historicity, there still is no expectation the bones would be missing, because the first generation of Christians never said they were. I discuss this in the spiritual body chapter of The Empty Tomb.
No—this “Jesus is an extraterrestrial” angle is exactly how people smuggle a new religion into the Bible by playing word games with ancient cosmology.
Yes, Scripture speaks of the “heavens” as above—and yes, ancient people pictured layered realms and angelic beings in those realms. But the moment someone takes that imagery and says, “See? That means outer space the way we mean it… therefore Yeshua HaMashiach is basically a space alien,” they’re not translating the text—they’re rewriting it.
Because the Bible isn’t confused about who Yeshua is.
He is not a created being who happens to live “off-planet.” He is the Word—the One through whom all things were made—and then He became flesh and entered human history (John 1:1–3, 14). The writer of Hebrews goes out of his way to shut down the exact downgrade this post is trying to sell: the Son is not “just another heavenly being,” not an angelic peer—He is superior to angels, worshiped by angels, and His throne is eternal (Hebrews 1).
And the gospel is not a myth about a cosmic drama hidden from human view. The Ruach HaKodesh anchored the message in history and testimony—so it could be preached, tested, and believed.
Paul—the favorite playground of these “celestial-only” theories—does not preach a Savior who never touched earth. He says the Son was born of a woman and born under Torah (Galatians 4:4). He says Yeshua is from the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3). He knows the community in Jerusalem and even names James, the brother of the Lord (Galatians 1:19). He preaches the crucifixion as a real death event and the burial as a real burial—then the resurrection—and he treats witnesses as meaningful (“appeared to Cephas… then the twelve… then James…” 1 Corinthians 15:3–8).
So what’s happening in that post is simple: it takes a true observation—“ancient people pictured ‘heaven’ spatially above”—and then uses it to justify a false conclusion—“therefore the faith is basically aliens, space stations, and an off-world crucifixion.” That’s not scholarship; that’s a narrative.
And it’s spiritually dangerous because it does what the serpent always does: it makes the Word of Elohim feel “outdated,” then offers a “more enlightened” version that flatters the modern mind while quietly evacuating the authority of Scripture. “Did God really say…?” becomes: “Did the apostles really mean…?” Then suddenly the cross is no longer the public victory of God in history—it’s a hidden metaphor in the sky that no one could verify except by private “revelation” and clever reinterpretation. That is the exact opposite of the apostolic pattern.
The real message is not “Jesus is an alien overlord among the stars.” The real message is: the Holy One entered our world, took on real humanity, lived in obedience, suffered, died, was buried, and was raised—so that sinners could repent, be forgiven, and be made new. If someone’s “new insight” makes Yeshua less than the eternal Son, makes the incarnation optional, makes the cross a celestial allegory, and makes Scripture bow to trend-language, then it’s not revelation—it’s vain philosophy dressed up as academic confidence (Colossians 2:8).
So no: I’m not taking the Messiah of Israel and rebranding Him as a “space alien” to impress people who want Christianity without submission. I’m standing on the testimony that was delivered: Yeshua HaMashiach—pre-existent, yes; incarnate, yes; crucified in history, yes; risen, yes; enthroned, yes—and coming again in glory, not as a sci-fi trope, but as the Judge and King.
If you want to talk about the “heavens,” we can talk about them biblically. But don’t use the language of “outer space” to smuggle in a new gospel.
You’re wrong, Nathaniel.
I document extensively that God was then understood indeed to be someone who lives a specific distance from Earth, just past the orbit of Saturn. There was never any other conception of gods in fact. The idea of gods existing in other planes of existence rather than in specific orbits of the solar system is modern and therefore heretical (see Inventing Heaven). Several peer reviewed studies have since corroborated my point (I cite and summarize them in Obsolete Paradigm, pp. 24 and 74).
The same evidence shows all angels (and Jesus was understood even from the time of Paul as an incarnated space angel) resided on different planets or in their orbits, in a physical geocentric structure corresponding to our entire notion of “outer space.” The ancient conception was thus that angels, demons, and gods were indeed extraterrestrials: they lived on or near other planets, a visible measurable distance from Earth. That’s simply what everyone believed back then.
you keep saying “you’re wrong” like that settles it, but what you’re actually doing is asserting a universal history that isn’t true, then calling anyone who disagrees “heretical” because they won’t adopt your vocabulary. that’s not scholarship, that’s a power play.
Scripture already answers your whole “God has an address past Saturn” claim before we even get to the cosmology talk. Solomon literally says, while dedicating the temple, “will Elohim indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain You” (1 Kings 8:27). Isaiah says, “heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool… what house could you build for Me?” (Isaiah 66:1). the Ruach HaKodesh says the same through Stephen: “the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands” (Acts 7:48–50). and Jeremiah shuts down the entire concept of a contained, locatable deity: “do I not fill heaven and earth?” (Jeremiah 23:23–24). so no, the God of Scripture is not “someone who lives a specific distance away” like a creature sitting in a measurable orbit. the Bible doesn’t present YHWH as a being inside the map. He’s the One who made the map. “In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). “by the word of YHWH the heavens were made” (Psalm 33:6). “I made the earth… My hands stretched out the heavens” (Isaiah 45:12). when you reduce Him to “just past Saturn,” you aren’t recovering ancient belief—you’re shrinking the Creator into creation and then pretending anyone who refuses that shrinkage is the one committing heresy.
and here’s the contradiction: you claim “there was never any other conception” and “that’s simply what everyone believed back then,” but history doesn’t cooperate with your absolutism. even in the classical world you’re drawing from, there were major schools that did not treat “God” as a body parked in a location the way a planet is. Stoic theology famously treats “god” as the rational ordering principle permeating the cosmos, not a resident of a particular orbital slot. and Jewish philosophical theology (like Philo) speaks explicitly against the idea of God being contained by space or being “in a place” the way objects are. so when you say “there was never any other conception in fact,” what you really mean is “there was never any other conception that fits the story I’m selling.” that’s not “documenting extensively,” that’s selective framing.
now to the core issue: your page keeps doing the same move over and over. you take a real ancient concept “heavens above,” layered realms, spiritual beings, ascent visions and then you rename it with a modern term (“outer space,” “aliens,” “space war”) and pretend the rename equals proof. but a rename is not a discovery, it’s marketing.
“outer space” to modern people carries a whole package: vacuum, planets as natural worlds, aliens as evolved biological creatures, and travel as physics. the biblical and Second Temple world isn’t talking like that. it’s talking about a created order that includes the “heavens,” with spiritual beings that are not “organisms from other planets,” but created messengers, ministering spirits, powers, dominions. when Scripture wants to stress what angels are, it doesn’t call them “extraterrestrials,” it calls them spirits: “are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve?” (Hebrews 1:14). and when it wants to stress who the Son is, it goes out of its way to forbid the downgrade you keep trying to smuggle in. Hebrews starts by exalting the Son above every angelic category, saying the Son is the radiance of Elohim’s glory, the exact imprint of His nature, and after making purification for sins sat down at the right hand of Majesty—then immediately asks, “to which of the angels did He ever say, ‘You are My Son’?” (Hebrews 1). that is the text preemptively rebuking your “incarnated space angel” label. and John is even clearer: “the Word was with God, and the Word was God… all things were made through Him… and the Word became flesh” (John 1:1–3, 14). not “a space being put on a suit.” the eternal Son took true humanity. that’s why 1 John draws a hard line: those who do not confess Yeshua HaMashiach come in the flesh are not speaking by the Spirit of Elohim (1 John 4:2–3). you can dress it up in cosmic vocabulary all you want, but when your framing functionally turns the incarnation into a disposable “environment suit,” you’re drifting toward the very denial John warns about.
Paul who you keep recruiting as your witness doesn’t preach an off-world myth that later got “moved to Jerusalem.” he repeatedly anchors Messiah in real human lineage and real human life. “born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4:4). “from the seed of David according to the flesh” (Romans 1:3). he knows the leadership in Jerusalem and he names “James, the brother of the Lord” (Galatians 1:19). he preaches Messiah crucified, buried, raised, and he treats appearances as meaningful testimony (1 Corinthians 15). none of that reads like “we only knew by decoding secret messages and we thought it all happened behind the moon.” it reads like what the faith has always claimed: God acted in history, publicly, and then sent witnesses. and the reason your page keeps needing to say “everyone agreed” and “it’s official now” is because the actual evidence doesn’t carry the weight you’re pretending it does.
the hypocrisy is that you posture as the defender of “what everyone believed,” while practicing the most modern thing imaginable: you redefine words to force a conclusion, then accuse anyone who won’t accept your definitions of being “heretical.” Scripture calls that kind of arrogance what it is. “knowledge puffs up” (1 Corinthians 8:1). “do not be wise in your own eyes” (Proverbs 3:7). “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6). “see to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition… and not according to Messiah” (Colossians 2:8). and that’s exactly what this is captivity by a clever framework that makes you feel superior to “simple believers,” while quietly stripping the text of what it plainly says.
So yes, ancient people pictured the heavens as above, and yes, some systems imagined stacked spheres, and yes, ascent visions use spatial language. but none of that gives you permission to declare “God lives past Saturn,” to flatten the Creator into a coordinate, to call all dissent “modern heresy,” or to rebrand Yeshua HaMashiach as an “extraterrestrial space angel” like the gospel is a sci-fi origin story. your page doesn’t elevate truth; it plays with words to dethrone the Word. and that is exactly why the apostles warned that there would be people who “turn away from the truth and wander into myths” (2 Timothy 4:3–4).
if you want to talk about ancient cosmology honestly, fine do it without absolutist bluffing, without “everyone believed,” without pretending your private definitions are the standard. but if you’re going to use those definitions to downgrade the Son, relocate God into creation, and sell a new gospel with academic swagger, then you’re not correcting the church you’re repeating the oldest pattern in the book: “you will be like God,” just with footnotes this time.
Giant repetitive wordwalls that ignore everything discussed and all the evidence and citations presented is not rational.
Only rational discussion is approved here.
You are at this point completely ignoring everything I have said. So either you can go somewhere else to peddle your crazy, or you can act rationally and actually read the scholarship before trying to address it.
Jesus from Outer Space, 7–10 summarizes the actual conclusion you are supposed to be responding to, and already refutes your entire tack.
On the Historicity of Jesus, 178–97, contains all the scholarship and evidence confirming that summary and refuting your take up to 2014. And since…
Catherine Hezser, “Outer Space in Ancient Jewish and Christian Literature,” in Religion and Outer Space (ed. Eric Michael Mazur and Sarah McFarland Taylor; Routledge, 2023), 9–24, confirms I’m right and you’re wrong, adding even more evidence than I did.
Robyn Faith Walsh, “Argumentum ad Lunam: Pauline Discourse, ‘Double Death’, and Competition on the Moon,” Harvard Theological Review 117.4 (2024), 720-743, also confirms I’m right and you’re wrong, adding even more evidence than Hezser and I did.
And Stephen Case, “Inventing Heaven,” Aeon (2 December 2022), verifies this perspective.
You can either deal with the expert evidence and scholarship or ignore it. But if you choose to ignore it, your comments will be rejected here, where only rational engagement with the evidence is allowed.
Make sure you approve and address my previous comment it’s been nearly over 24 hours!
I have work and life, so, as my comments policy warns, moderation can take days.
El que No exista documentos fisicos, que hayan sido escrito en el mismo momento que estaban sucediendo ciertos hechos (como se hace en un reportaje actual), No significa que eso los descalifica para ser considerados “hechos historicos”, ya que Actualmente tambien se escriben Cronicas de personas y hechos del pasado, basados en testimonios y evidencias historicas. Tratandose de Historia, la evidencia puede ser Objetiva (objetos materiales) y tambien Subjetiva (otros hechos tangibles, que se producen como consecuencia de los primeros) y por eso Moises, David, Pedro, Pablo y el Jesus Judio, son personajes historicos que fueron referidos en las Escrituras biblicas (Torah y Evangelios).
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El ser humano muere y No se va a ningun “planeta” del espacio exterior sino el podria volver en su nave espacial a la Tierra.
De la misma manera, cuando Jesus murio, No se fue a Otro planeta del “espacio exterior” sino “al Cielo” (que No es otro lugar del Universo similar a la Tierra y del Mundo Terrenal).
En “el Cielo” (Mundo Espiritual) habitan las almas (la conciencia sin su cuerpo original), donde permanecen sin las limitaciones del espacio-tiempo del Universo espacial o terrenal, en el cual habitamos los seres humanos.
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Por Otro lado, los extraterrestres y los Ovnis (UAP), solo son parte de la desinformacion mediatica de algunas Naciones poderosas que compiten entre Si, las cuales Ocultan Programas secretos de Todo tipo, con los cuales se preparan para Prevalecer sobre sus competidores, pues el objetivo No disimulado de Todos los Imperios en la historia humana, ha sido Controlar el Mundo, primero en su espacio geografico inmediato, luego expandirse para globalizarlo y finalmente Unificarlo bajo su direccion exclusiva o con Alianzas geopoliticas.
Entonces, “los extraterrestres” son de la Tierra y No del cielo.
Cuando haya un Vencedor definitivo Todo saldra a la Luz y “los apostoles” de los seres del espacio quedaran en evidencia como desinformadores pagados o solo tontos utiles.
(1) On records reliability, the reality is way more complicated than you make out. I survey the issues in Chapters 7 and 8 of On the Historicity of Jesus. But the short of it is: no one is arguing that sources are inherently unreliable because they are late; the data indicating their unreliability extends beyond mere chronology. I even give an example of a late yet reliable source (Arrian) in Chapter two, and how it differs from what we have for early Christianity. So you have a lot of reading to do to catch up to what our arguments actually are.
(2) You are anachronistically talking about modern beliefs about souls and heaven. None of those beliefs existed in antiquity (or even the early Middle Ages). See the new Aeon article on this. You will always fail to understand Christian origins if you continue to misunderstand what people believed back then, and instead confuse it for what people only in modern times believe. I have extensive evidence of what the beliefs were then in Chapter 5 of OHJ, I cite new studies by other scholars confirming that now in Chapter 2 of The Obsolete Paradigm of a Historical Jesus, and I explain the distinction between modern and ancient worldviews on this point in Chapter 1 of Jesus from Outer Space.
(3) There are no alien visitors. UFOs aren’t real. So you evidently have a lot of catching up to do even with modern facts.