In my last article (on The Historicity of Nazareth) I mentioned in the course of a mostly positive review of Ken Dark’s new book (Archaeology of Jesus’ Nazareth) that he completely shits the bed when it comes to arguing that “surely” Jesus existed to contemplate as a Nazarene. You get a foreshadowing of this when he says (earlier on p. 138):
All the Roman-period tombs in Nazareth are of types which could date from the mid-first century onwards. This has been used by so-called ‘mythicists’—people who believe that both Jesus and Nazareth were fictitious—to claim that Jesus’ Nazareth never existed at all. They are certainly wrong: there is, as we have seen in previous chapters, plenty of archaeological evidence for early first-century Nazareth.
There is indeed plenty of archaeological evidence for early first-century Nazareth (see my last). But it’s totally face-palmingly embarrassing to think doubting that is the definition of mythicism. In fact no peer-reviewed mythicism doubts it—only internet sleuths, and cranks. But that Dark doesn’t know the difference shows us he didn’t check any of the academic literature on this before pontificating on it like an expert—which is ironically the behavior of a non-expert. Experts check. So that he didn’t tells us he is so driven by emotion on this point that he literally forgot how to behave like an expert as soon as this is the subject at hand. Indeed, it shows us he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And as I document in The Obsolete Paradigm of a Historical Jesus, this misbehavior typifies the field, indeed it’s the only thing it has left to offer.
So Dark has provided us with yet another own-goal for his field on this, proving my point. I suspect Dark’s ball-drop here reflects a wilful situational incompetence. He has the skills and qualifications and training to do this competently. He is simply choosing not to in this case. Which commonly occurs when an expert has an emotional motivation they need their objective critical skills not to get in the way of.
Dark’s Case “against” Mythicists
Dark leads with the lazy and inaccurate claim that “self-styled sceptics about Jesus’ existence—such as the mythicists already mentioned—often claim there is insufficient, or no, written evidence of Jesus as a historical figure” (p. 149, leading a section spanning pp. 149–54). Of course, being a skeptic simply is being self-styled, so his snarky inclusion of that adjective doesn’t seem to carry any argument, indicating he has lost the plot, and is just angry, and flailing around for some way to insult mythicists that comes across as dumb. But more importantly, he isn’t even making a true statement about them—he isn’t even correctly describing the cranks! If you can’t tell the truth about someone’s position you mean to refute, you have already told us you can’t honestly refute them. You’ve immediately lost the argument.
We could drop mic and move on.
But let’s continue anyway. Even the likes of Salm (really, the only “mythicist” Dark has in mind) don’t say there is “no” written evidence for Jesus. And certainly, mainstream peer-reviewed studies explicitly reject that position (see OHJ 2014 and QHJ 2019; and now OPH, 2025). So he is attacking a straw man from practically his first sentence. Hence, he doesn’t know that in fact Lataster and I make exactly the same argument Dark does across pp. 149–50, negating the entire point of his making that argument. We establish even more thoroughly than he does that the expectation of textual evidence for Jesus is low and an argument from silence cannot by itself challenge his historicity. And we detail every single item of “written evidence” there is. And I even count some of it as positive evidence for historicity in my final calculation, when establishing my upper margin of error.
That Dark does not know any of this proves he did not check any of the peer-reviewed literature on this. He doesn’t even do the lazy and stupid thing some have done, of only citing the negative reviews by Christian apologists, which would at least show he was aware of the fact that peer-reviewed studies arguing mythicism exist. But he isn’t even aware of that. Of course, even that would fail to achieve his objective. Because merely citing dishonest and unreliable apologetics, rather than reading the actual academic studies they are slandering (as I document in OPH, Ch. 3), would be another example of failing to check and thus not knowing what you are talking about, and thus having no chance of successfully defending the historicity of Jesus. But Dark falls short of even that failure-mode.
Imagine you were insisting it was “obvious” that Moses existed or Jesus rose from the dead, and instead of reading the extensive peer-reviewed literature questioning those things, you only mentioned amateurs and cranks, pointed out that they are amateurs and cranks, therefore “Moses existed” or “Jesus rose from the dead.” Everyone would immediately recognize this approach as completely incompetent and practically admitting their own position cannot honestly be defended. In effect, your having to behave like this is itself proof that “Moses did not exist” and “Jesus did not rise from the dead.” You don’t make stupid arguments for conclusions you have real arguments to defend. You only make stupid arguments in defense of conclusions you can’t really defend. Dark has done the same with mythicism. His own approach proves mythicism.
Since Dark behaved totally irresponsibly for a scholar here and checked none of the real literature on this (not even to know that it exists!) he literally presents zero arguments against its arguments and results. All he has is obvious 101 stuff the peer-reviewed studies already acknowledge and incorporate. He doesn’t even know what their remaining arguments are that he is supposed to be responding to or evaluating the merits of. Accordingly, his entire positive case for historicity is itself hopelessly naive, as uninformed and unsophisticated as any internet amateur. Which is embarrassing coming from someone with a PhD.
Dark’s Case “for” Historicity: Priors
Accordingly, when Dark lists evidence for historicity, he doesn’t know how any of it has been challenged or even refuted, and consequently does nothing to recover it from those challenges or refutations, rendering his pages defending historicity completely useless to anyone.
The first of these failures occurs at constructing a defensible prior probability that someone like Jesus would be historical. Dark foolishly thinks it a point to make that “If another group of texts written within a century said this,” e.g. “that [a guy named] Joseph was a tekton [a craftsman] in Nazareth who passed on this trade to [a son named] Jesus,” about “another family,” some random family unconnected to any religion, “historians would consider it unremarkable and probably accept it without the need to comment” (p. 158). This is true. It’s what I have pointed out before (and in all my formal studies) as the reference class effect (OHJ, Ch. 6; OPH, Ch. 6). The problem is that (as I once explained for Hannibal) Jesus is not in the reference class of “just some guy said to be a carpenter in some town.” Mundane people reported in histories do tend to exist (not always, but with enough frequency for their priors to favor it, as I show for numerous examples in OPH, Ch. 6). But heavily mythologized and worshiped superheroes tend not to exist. And we have to admit that and take it into account. Jesus is not just like some random guy reported in some history book. He is like Osiris and Hercules and Aesop and Romulus and Moses and Joseph. These guys tend not to exist.
It thus matters that Jesus is never clearly identified as a historical person in any materials whatsoever that aren’t mythologies. He does not show up in a personal letter as a guy someone met or in someone’s memoirs or anywhere else that mundane people show up. He only appears in myths—which are usually about mythical people. Not always—but again, with enough frequency for their priors to favor it. And he or his father being a Maker had obvious mythic resonance to invent. So we need more evidence for Jesus than for just “some guy,” much less for him being “actually” a craftsman (just as for Hephaestus or Daedalus being “actually” a craftsman, or Apollo a shepherd or Poseidon a bricklayer).
Without specific evidence establishing Jesus to be one of the exceptions to mythical superheroes, one of the few who really did exist in some mundane sense originally, we have no basis for being sure they did. Dark is thus starting from the wrong reference class, by incompetently ignoring the fact that Jesus only appears in myth (and religious texts reporting myth). Dark completely skips over this, tanking his entire argument from its very first premise. The fact that he has to pretend Jesus is “just some guy” is itself proof that he has no case and really is just trying to avoid the factual reality that Jesus’s existence is actually doubtable, and does need more than the mundane evidence that would suffice for anyone else.
I illustrate this point in Jesus from Outer Space and Obsolete Paradigm with the example of the risen Jesus. Paul says in personal letters that he spoke to the dead Jesus in his head multiple times: 2 Cor. 12:6–9, 1 Cor 15:8, Gal. 1:11–16, Gal. 2:2, etc., including 1 Cor. 11:23–25, which, as I show in Obsolete Paradigm, has been proved to be a report of a dream or vision by multiple scholars now, from myself to Francis Watson, Afetame Alabi, Hans Lietzmann, and John Dominic Crossan, with support even from Joshua Garroway and Steve Mason, and others. Dark would surely agree that Jesus is not historical. He is entirely imaginary. But does a guy you talk to in your head usually also really exist? Or would you need more evidence than that that he did? Even when Paul talks about his imaginary friend having previously died, he appears to say he only knows that from secret codes in the Bible (1 Cor. 15:3–5, Rom. 16:25–26) and thinks he was killed by magical demons (1 Cor. 2:6–8), as many scholars now agree, as I also document in Obsolete Paradigm, in peer-reviewed studies ranging widely from Walter Wink to Beverly Gaventa, Arthur Droge, M. David Litwa, Robert Moses, and others.
Obviously we need more evidence for that man having been a real person than this. Paul only ever talks about Jesus as if he were (once and now) a space-alien. We have no one from Paul’s generation claiming ever to have met or seen him in real life. Jesus only appears in revelations and esoteric bible-code theology throughout Paul’s authentic letters, as well as in Hebrews, 1 Clement, even 1 Peter (if you take that as authentic). The first time Jesus appears “in earth history” is in the mythological hagiography of Mark, which reifies teachings of Paul into stories about and sayings from Jesus (as many scholars also now agree: see Mark’s Use of Paul’s Epistles). This does not look encouraging. This state of affairs should warrant doubting the historicity of Paul’s imaginary friend, not “being sure” of it.
And if this is true for “the risen” Jesus, it’s just as true of the pre-mortem Jesus. Because we have no better evidence for the latter than we have for the former. So we need something more. We can’t just say “Jesus was just this guy, you know; therefore surely he existed, because ordinary dudes usually do.” That’s simply, literally, false. The inference is correct; but the premise is not. Jesus is, in all sources we have, a superhero from outer space. Not just some carpenter from Kent.
Dark’s Case “for” Historicity: Likelihoods
After completely getting wrong the prior probability that someone like Jesus would exist, Dark then flubs every likelihood ratio that could have turned that around. Dark’s first attempt to build a favorable likelihood ratio for Jesus reads like street-corner apologetics, not serious scholarship (p. 150):
Jesus is, of course, mentioned in the four Gospels, the book of Acts, and the seven letters of St Paul … We usually think of all of these as parts of the Bible, but they were written as independent texts. Only later were they combined, with other texts, to make the New Testament. There are, then, twelve separate written texts rather than one (the Bible) for the existence of Jesus as a historical figure.
This is all false. In fact, so false, that no competent historian should ever have written this paragraph. These are not independent sources. Paul’s letters all come from one source (Paul). They are not “seven” independent sources. And the Gospels and Acts all embellish on each other; they are not independent of each other; they are not “five” independent sources. They are all the elaborations of one source—which is dependent on Paul. So it all goes back to a single source: Paul. That’s all we have. And Paul does not actually corroborate anything historical about Jesus in the Gospels or Acts.
Everyone agrees there is really only one known source among the Gospels and Acts for Jesus: Mark. Matthew simply embellished Mark, stating no sources for what he added, and a lot of what he added is by most scholars agreed to be fictional; Luke combined and embellished Mark and Matthew, again citing no sources for anything, and simply re-referenced that in Acts; and John responds to (principally) Luke and Mark, in the most wildly fictional story yet, and even credits as his source a fictional character: Lazarus. Yes, Lazarus: see OHJ, Ch. 7, again with many scholars concurring, from Floyd Filson to Keith Pearce, and many more cited by Christian apologist James Charlesworth, whose only argument against them and their extensive list of evidence is—and I kid you not—that Lazarus can’t be the Beloved Disciple (John 11:1-3, 11:5, 20:6-10, cf. 11:43–44, and 21:21-24, cf. 11:43–44) because Lazarus could not possibly run faster than Peter (John 20:3-5), since he had recently been resurrected from the dead (John 11:38–44). That is rank apologetics of the most gullible and stupid kind. But it reflects how there just are no competent arguments against these conclusions—forcing the likes of Charlesworth to argue the world works like a cartoon.
The Gospels are all myths, and they are not independent. They are all dependent on Mark (and each other). And Mark is dependent on Paul—and not in respect to the historical truth of Mark’s tales about Jesus, but in respect to their fictionalizing Paul’s theology, not memories of Jesus. So this is not good evidence for Jesus. To the contrary, this all together stinks of a mythical Jesus. To treat all this as “twelve” independent, sober historical accounts of a real guy is to be extraordinarily gullible, not professional. Dark is proving Jesus didn’t exist by showing us that he only has the most credulous and ridiculous defense of his existence to offer us, rather than any sound or serious argument.
In the end, the net “likelihood” of these twelve dependent sources and their contents is at best the same whether Jesus existed or not. And thus none of this makes the case that Jesus is “an exception” to the usual trend that mythologized superheroes are mythical and not historical. To the contrary, that Jesus only exists in myth—the overt unsourced mythologies of the Gospels and Acts (OHJ, Ch. 9 and 10), and the celestializing mythology gullibly believed by Paul (OHJ, Ch. 11)—argues for Jesus being as typical as everyone else in that category: mythical people, only ever imaginary or imagined. Just as with any of them, we would need more than this for Jesus to prove him an exception to that rule. You can’t just circularly cite all the mythologies of Jesus and letters referencing an imaginary Jesus as evidence Jesus wasn’t imaginary or mythical.
As it stands, the Gospels establish Jesus was a heavily mythologized person, and such persons tend not to exist. So you need evidence to get Jesus into the small set of exceptions. But nothing in any text raises those odds. So we are left with what we have: more likely than not, Jesus was mythical. Now, of course, there is an argument to proceed from there—one can nitpick specific passages in Paul, and in the Gospels and Acts and other texts, to try and “get” that extra needed evidence, some smoking gun that proves Paul or they knew Jesus was a recent historical convict executed by Rome for example, or that Mark was recording the memoirs of Jesus’s companions in life, or something, anything. And I cover all that and its net effects on the probability of Jesus in my studies, and Lataster does the same in his. But Dark is unaware of any of this, and thus never references it—even to respond to any of it (much less, competently).
So all we have from Dark is the totally gullible and naive circular falsehoods of Christian apologetics: that a plethora of mythologies copying each other, riffing on reports from one guy who says he met an imaginary friend (and contemporaries who say nothing more than that), somehow “count” as “twelve” “independent” “sources” “attesting” to a historical Jesus. And that’s ridiculous. It is, in fact, why I no longer believe Jesus exists: this naive nuttery is all historicists have to argue the contrary. With this nonsense we could argue the historicity of Moses, Osiris, Romulus, Aesop; any mythical person we wanted. It’s obviously therefore only an argument for what someone like Dark wants. It is not an argument for what a sober professional should believe.
And Then, What?
That’s really all Dark has. He scatters some typical gullible apologetics here and there besides, but none get anywhere, and all are unprofessional and naive—and simply wrong, in one way or another. For example (p. 151):
- “We can’t … dismiss [these “twelve” documents] as sources for the existence of Jesus—no matter how we then analyse what they say in detail—on the grounds that they were written by Jesus’ supporters.” No one under peer review does. In all my formal studies and Lataster’s we never make this argument. To the contrary, we make the case against trusting the Gospels from extensive evidence of their mythmaking and invention and documented unreliability. Dark has no word to say against any of that evidence—or even the conclusion. Which illustrates his complete ignorance of his own field’s literature.
- ”If the Gospels were all there was to attest the historical existence of Jesus, they would be taken as more than enough evidence.” No honest professional believes that. Because the Gospels are identical in function, origin, and construction to the myths of Osiris, Moses, Aesop, Romulus, Dionysus, and beyond. And obviously no honest professional believes those provide any evidence that those men existed. Dark’s special pleading for the Gospels to be treated differently is more of the same apologetical false equivalence between mythical and historical writing in antiquity. It is not a serious argument. And it carries no logical weight at all. It’s embarrassing to see him even say it.
- Josephus’s passage about James “provides really firm evidence” that Jesus existed. This has been refuted under peer review half a dozen times now (as I show in OPH, e.g. pp. 363–71, citing studies from myself, Lataster, Allen, Hansen, Williams, and List). Dark clearly does not know this, as he provides no arguments against their case and doesn’t even know he has to, proving he never competently checked before making this gullible assertion. But for my most recent discussion of why this is unusable as evidence (because the reference in it to Christ cannot be established even to refer to a biological relation, much less to be authentic, to any greater chance than 50/50) see Schmidt on James.
- “The famous Roman historian Tacitus refers in his book Annals (15.44) to ‘Chrestus’ (probably meaning Christ), when relating the allegation that the Christians started the fire in Rome.” Here Dark shows he didn’t even check the text he is referencing—he has garbled apologetical claims that a certain “Chrestus” in Suetonius (not Tacitus) is Christ (a conclusion rejected by nearly every expert now, and useless as evidence for historicity even if it were true, as then Suetonius hoses every historical fact of the man and thus would appear to only have reports of a belief in Christ causing riots, not a historical man doing so) with the fact that our only manuscript of Tacitus’s account originally called Christians “Chrestians,” calling into doubt his writing the line about “Christ” explaining that name, and thus his ever meaning this about Christians at all. This shows that Dark’s treatment of this subject is so extraordinarily lazy and incompetent as to call into doubt anything he says on the subject.
- “This passage is accepted as a genuine part of the Annals by most twenty-first-century historians.” Based on the above, his allowing that some scholars disagree (a curious thing to do and yet have no argument against their case—making this a fallacy of “argument from most people think so”) is probably just instinctive cautious writing. I do not get the impression that Dark knows any of those dissenting scholars or their arguments (see OPH, pp. 76–88), and in any case, he recovers his point from none of them. Nor would that matter, because…
- More importantly, the majority of “twenty-first-century historians” (if that is what Dark wants to go with) who have published peer-reviewed studies of this evidence have concluded it cannot evince the historicity of Jesus even if entirely authentic (see OPH, pp. 76–88, citing myself, Lataster, Williams, Hansen, Prchlík, Drews, Barrett, Shaw, Jones, Van der Lans, Bremmer, Cineira, and Cook), because it is derivative of the Gospels (directly or through Christian informants) and therefore not independent. Yet Dark incompetently treats it as a “fourteenth” independent source for Jesus—Josephus’s remarks about James being the thirteenth, yet even that, even if authentic, also cannot be established to be independent. Not knowing how to establish the independence of a source is a thing Dark himself knows is reflective of incompetence in a historian. Yet Dark chooses incompetence.
- Finally, Dark tries to imply that oral lore “could” be reliable enough (p. 153) to justify 4th century legends (p. 155) about which house Jesus lived in at Nazareth being reliable. He admits this is not enough to warrant confidence, just a “possibility,” which is trivially true. So there is nothing I need respond to here except that he claims “several studies” have found ancient oral traditions to be true, but never names or cites any, so I have no idea what he is talking about or if it bears any useful analogy here at all. Which matters because…
- Dark implies he means studies regarding lore of “volcanic eruptions or tsunamis,” which are so catastrophic one can hardly expect lore of them to die out. But this is a fallacy of affirming the consequent: if a real catastrophe, then probably enduring lore (which is true); therefore, if enduring lore, then probably a real catastrophe (which is false—lots of lored catastrophes aren’t real or don’t trace to any specific one, much less just because some do). Likewise, “there was a guy who lived here once” is not a catastrophe wiping out half the population, so it’s a fallacy of false analogy (there are tons of “that famous guy was here once” myths in human history—it’s practically an inevitable industry); and the fact (and it is a fact, acknowledged even by Dark) that pilgrim myths were fabricated by deliberate imperial propaganda and profiteers in the 4th century entails a prior odds against any such lore being true, not in favor of it. Which is a fallacy of neglected background knowledge. However, that historians would suck at logic is expected (see Fischer, Historians’ Fallacies and OPH, Chs. 4 and 5).
Dark also doesn’t know there is abundant evidence that “Jesus the Nazorian” was his original appellation, not “Jesus of Nazareth,” and that the latter was a later attempt to reify the former in alignment with prophecy. But I covered that last time. The bottom line is that I am as sure as Dark is that Nazareth was a real and flourishing town for Jesus to have hailed from, but I am just as sure Jesus was never thought to have hailed from there until the Gospels made that up to perfect their religious fiction. And therefore whether it existed or not has no impact on the historicity of Jesus. The assignment was fake either way.
So Nazareth is a red herring for mythicists. It can never be relevant to any argument even for, much less against, the historicity of Jesus. If he had remained competent when discussing this subject that would have been Dark’s argument. Instead, we get embarrassing cartoonish drivel. Which is yet more evidence that no historian believes Jesus existed for any legitimate reason—and so you have no reason to believe there is any legitimate reason.





When the only tool you have in yout toolbox is a hammer, all of your problems start to look like nails.
“Mark is dependent on Paul”
This is nonsense IMHO.
The people who are deeply trained in Paul’s letters and the four Gospels might think so. They tend to create a beautiful walled garden to play within. They, being trained in doing deep analysis on Biblical texts, take out their “hammer” and force their problems into “nails”.
Where did Matthew get his extra material from? These people create a new Biblical text, “Q”.
Why does Mark sound like Paul? Obviously Mark had a copy of Paul’s letters in hand.
I posit that first century Christian had a set of beliefs. Both Paul and Mark wrote about them. Mark did not need Paul’s letters to know what Christians believed. I find it a big leap to say where Mark is in agreement with Paul’s Christian beliefs that he was using Paul’s letters as his source.
I link to the survey of scholarship and evidence. I’ve confirmed it myself. The evidence is overwhelming and not rationally doubtable. It is not like Q (which I have also checked and it did not check out).
Try interacting with the actual evidence rather than making blind declarations of emotional opinions instead. My article (just here linked again for you) gives a sample. There is more in the cited studies.
That you didn’t even look is shown by the fact that you think this has something to do with “sounding like” Paul or merely “agreeing” with Paul. That is not even on anyone’s item list as evidence here. The actual evidence is mimetic, detailed, and improbable on any other explanation, even individually but far more so in conjunction.
Do the work. Don’t just run around with your dick out.
“Jesus was just this guy, you know”.
I see Jesus and Zaphod Beeblebrox are hanging out on the Heart of Gold.
Reading this, it strikes me that I can empathize deeply with folks who are struggling to get out of the assumptions of historicity. In essence, I think a huge mistake they are making is confusing the theory for the evidence. More specifically, they are confusing the fact that their theory reinterprets a lot of evidence away as noise as that evidence being brought back up as a strawman.
Yes, if you have minimal historicity, and so you’re not being gullibly pro-supernatural, and you’re subtracting not just the supernatural but the historically implausible, what’s left, which is actually nowhere really attested, is a relatively ordinary preacher who got a small following. You can’t even point to, say, the Sermon on the Mount, not just because you realize a posteriori that the sermon is suspiciously complete and depends on the Greek and doesn’t look like a speech transcript at all (so at best you have the myth of a great speech that got translated into Greek and confabulated and thus have no way of reconstructing where and what the speech originally would have been), but also because the Sermon on the Mount, as described, is this incredible speech to huge multitudes of people listening to rapt attention, and if that guy existed, you would think someone would be able to recount the story of their incredible rabbi who had the day with the really great fish that seemed to come out of nowhere or whatever. You can’t point to the seemingly mundane lessons and parables, because they are always delivered in a historically implausible if not supernaturalist context.
The mythicist is just saying, “I can look at this same data, the data we actually have, and construct a hypothesis. And that hypothesis actually requires ignoring a lot less evidence. Because I don’t have to pretend some process that, while plausible, is still not guaranteed, of a mundane cult leader being so rapidly treated like a god, occurred, when no one is documenting it and we’re not getting any skeletons of that process. I can just look at the bulk of the evidence”. That only requires accepting that later historicized tales can be told, which only seems weird until you pay attention to the local context of mystery cults and euhemerism.
I believe you’ve said before that a single plausible inscription or piece of graffiti would kill mythicism. What would you need that inscription to say? “Here we celebrate our rabbi, Yeshua of Nazareth, the heir to Joshua, who taught us peace and love before the end comes”, or something more or less complete? The name wouldn’t have to be Yeshua, but what would you take as a complete enough indication that they’re talking about the rabbi who founded Christianity?
Indeed. Confusing hypothesis with evidence is a common error-mode in history, especially biblical history. I explain how it goes wrong in my debate with Bermejo-Rubio and again in OPH.
The basic mistake is actually “circular argument,” where a theory is used to reinterpret all the evidence, then that reinterpretation is used as evidence for the theory. It’s logically invalid. Yet done all the time.
Part of the problem (and I think this is true across the board for all error in all fields) is that this mistake “looks like” a legitimate method, which is to try and predict the evidence given the hypothesis. But that’s not doing the same thing. It “looks” like the same thing. And so historians get all angry and confused when you tell them it’s not. Because they’ve never understood or studied logic and thus can’t even tell the difference. I’m not the only historian to make this observation. It’s shown up several times in the literature. But it’s always ignored. Alas.
Because almost all Biblical scholars have believed Jesus existed since before they took their first college class, all of their theories explaining the evidence assume that he existed. It then feels like his existence has tremendous explanatory power. Just like how Creationism would mean throwing out tons of scientific explanatory power, Biblical scholars feel like Mythicism would throw out a lot of their explanatory power that they’ve built up over centuries.
In reality Mythicism doesn’t throw out all of the knowledge we’ve built up the same way Creationism does. Maybe the crazy internet theories do, but the Doherty Hypothesis keeps almost all of modern Biblical studies. It’s really not very radical at all. The main things it throws out are the unfounded assumptions (or the assumptions with a weak foundation). There are only a handful of points where it struggles to offer the same explanatory power as the Historicity Hypothesis, but even then those are debatable. And in exchange it provides much better explanations on other points.
Biblical scholars have a hard time seeing that though. In part because there’s a pro-Christian bias in the field even among secular scholars who don’t want to be mean to their Christian friends by accepting a hypothesis that closes the door on Christianity being true in any meaningful sense. But also in part because the online mythicists have poisoned the well against the Doherty Hypothesis. It’s natural for them to throw the baby out with the bath water since they have other things to worry about and they have absolutely no incentive to try and challenge the consensus on the historical Jesus.
That is aptly observed. It really is a paradigm: like switching from geocentrism to heliocentrism, or those drawings where to see one thing or another you have to switch what you focus on and you won’t see it until then, you have to switch the way you look at the data to “get” why mythicism actually has more explanatory power than historicism. Hence my latest book’s title: The Obsolete Paradigm of a Historical Jesus.
As to the “what would do it” question, I answer that in OPH esp. in its last three chapters, regarding what Paul could have said that would have clinched this (even just a single differemt word in some cases). I give examples of what other kinds of stuff could exist in ch. 6 with all the other people I analyze.
So, for instance, I there give examples of inscriptions that prove various people existed. One need merely extrapolate that to Jesus. The problem of course is that we don’t expect anyone to have done that for Jesus, so their not having done it is not unexpected on historicity and thus not evidence against it (as I explain in OHJ ch. 8). But that’s not the point of your example, which is to illustrate how such evidence would work if perchance we did have it. I gave examples of that to McGrath.
I set aside graffiti there. But if it were graffiti, what we would need is something (1) reliably provenanced to before the Jewish War that said (2) something non-cryptic (3) about our Jesus (4) that clearly has to be about our Jesus and (5) is unexpected on any other explanation than that he was a recent person walking around. There are infinite examples we could list. But just to pick one at random: “Jesus was the messiah. Pilate unjustly killed him.” That would be weak but positive evidence (a slight chance it is repeating myth exists, but it’s unlikely that myth could exist so early). It would be stronger the nearer to the 30s AD it could be dated (as I explain in ch. 3 of OHJ).
Better evidence would be a papyrus document (e.g. a copy of the charging document, like we have quoted for Socrates; or the actual letter of Claudius Lysias purported in Acts which had the complete explanation of why an army had to be deployed to protect Paul, which could not fail to mention his preaching the returned spirit of a recently executed convict) or whole inscription (e.g. we have examples of recent religious events related on stone in Pagans and Christians that set ideal models for this, where someone erected an inscription simply outright describing what happened, like “Jesus came from Nazareth and preached far and wide and the Romans killed him at the urging of the Jewish elite who became jealous of his influence. We loved him and his teachings. We will not forget him. For he lives again.”).
More examples can be extrapolated from my discussion of the Aurelian Rain Miracle. For example, someone scrawling on a stone in Capernaum that “here” they heard Jesus the Messiah preach forgiveness and the coming of the Son of Man. Or anything similarly suitable.
The option of mythism is a bit difficult for me, for example, people can explain the sudden visions of Paul and Peter by saying that the trigger was the death of a man (Christ), but if he did not exist, then what became the trigger?
Messiah fever and syncretic tendencies.
This is explained in On the Historicity of Jesus, chs. 4 and 5.
Any claim that Jesus didn’t exist requires an alternative theory of why the religion started, and evidence for that theory. Which is what the peer reviewed studies present (and why they passed factual review). So any question like yours should begin by consulting those studies. Historicity is a good place to start if you’re still at that basic a level.
Key elements (but not solely) include the fact that scripture already created an expectation of a dying messiah presaging the end of the world; and all religions with dying saviors had similar “no real dead guy” origins. Indeed, the development of Christian literature (from cosmic to mythic) resembles every other example of that.
Thank you for your reply and your time, but I still have questions:
1) If James wasn’t Jesus’s true brother, then what’s the point of Mark’s polemic? It was initially assumed that Mark, being from Paul’s sect, was deliberately demonizing Christ’s family to paint James in a bad light, but why would Mark make him part of that same family? Isn’t it more reasonable to assume that James’s status as a member of Christ’s family didn’t arise out of nowhere?
2) You believe that the scene where Jesus breaks bread isn’t a late legend, but a vision of Paul’s. But are such visions with clear instructions even possible?
Thank you in advance for your answers.
(1)
Mark never demonizes the family. He mentions the family only twice: first (Mk 3) as an aetiological myth explaining the origin of Christianity’s fictive kinship model (Christians are each other’s family now; biology means nothing anymore), which is all over Paul and thus an obvious thing for Mark to invent a myth to illustrate or reify; and then (Mk 6) as a reason for outsiders to fail to understand the gospel, and as an apologetic myth to relate when missionaries run into the same problem that “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home,” which was likely a common problem they needed a story to tell to explain away, and this obviously was constructed to suit.
Only in the latter case is James ever named, but not singled out for any opinion at all. In the former case his family is getting haughty but no one is named. When Mark wrote no one had ever heard of any real family of Jesus (it’s missing entirely from 1 Clement for example, yet should be there), so in these stories, he’s making them up out of whole cloth. In Luke, the entire family are all believers (Acts 1); then all vanish (James and all) as soon as the public history begins (in Acts 2–28). So there was no knowledge of the family being actually in the church (much less as leadership). That was a made-up story (Luke is just riffing on Mark; but hadn’t invented the legend of James being a leader yet; that myth would be invented afterward—it first shows up in dubious apocrypha recorded in Hegesippus).
The Jameses who show up in Paul are mere Christian brothers and the apostle, brother of John, not Jesus. No actual family of Jesus ever shows up in Paul. That has always been a misinterpretation.
There is a lot more evidence for these points than what I just briefed here. I have an entire chapter on James in Paul in Obsolete Paradigm and entire sections on the other texts (in and out of the Bible) in Historicity (see index, “family of Jesus”).
(2)
Yes.
That in fact was the commonplace role everyone understood for visions—real and pretended. And this tracks all human history. I cite the science in Element 15 of Ch. 4 of Historicity. A lot more has been published since, including a lot of scholars who concur (and argue even more conclusively than I did) for this in particular being a vision, as I cite and discuss now in Paradigm.
Paul himself relates entire conversations he had with Jesus, and entire sets of instructions he (or someone he trusted) received in heaven, in 2 Corinthians 12. Acts has similar visions attributed to Peter and others. And all ancient apocalypses were models intended to be believed as such (Ascension of Isaiah, Revelation, etc.). Outside that, we have the example of the shamanic communications received that started the Cargo Cults (discussed in Historicity), Joseph Smith’s pretense, and so on.
It’s important to remember that it is impossible to tell the difference between real visions and pretended because pretenders specifically aimed to sound like the real thing (I discuss the anthropology of this, citing scholarship, in Ch. 10 of Not the Impossible Faith). Likewise, the words for vision in antiquity did not distinguish between trance states and mere dreams. The ancients believed a god talking to you in your dreams was the actual god talking to you. So “visions” included dreams, which could be long narrative dreams or instructionals. But trance states could induce the same experience, and lots of methods of trancing were then known (incubation, marathon prayer/chants/dance, sleep deprivation, etc.; also drugs, but there’s no evidence Christians used that method) and there is a whole anthropological reality of schizotypal shamanism to account for (covered in Element 15).
Ask any writer: who is easier to write about, somebody recently (or even not so recently) dead, or somebody you made up? With a real person you risk being contradicted by people who knew him, or by published facts, and needing to explain away events those familiar know and expect to read about that don’t neatly fit your narrative. As it is, the early pretense to John the Baptist’s endorsement, needed in order to gain any traction at all, later became an embarrassment (what does God need an endorsement for?) Lucky for them, John himself left the stage young.
Hi Dr. Carrier, after reading your first article on Dr. Dark’s book, [btw what a great name] I also followed the link & read the description & reviews there. I enjoy archaeology studies and considered buying or reading a copy. Then I read this “part 2” critique.
In 2026 I find it shocking that a professor of his credentials – Cambridge, Oxford – and experience could produce the bad apologetics you critique -and get published by Oxford Press! It sounds like he should have stayed with the useful archaeological work & left it there. Unfortunately, reading some of the 5 star reviews shows just how his book functions to reinforce many readers’ historicity / Christian beliefs. It seems wildly irresponsible and just shows how deep the bias goes in most biblical studies. The good work on archaeology gets used deceptively for the naive or gullible reader. So much of junk apologetics gets tolerated or even elevated among the legitimate work that these scholars seem capable of doing (see also Ehrman, Tabor, et al as you have frequently elucidated). I have also heard Ehrman claim the 4 canonical gospels are independent sources on his podcast, which is mindboggling. It seems like the audience for so many of these types of books and media are Christians and thus the party line gets woven in. It is unprofessional & very problematic IMO. In Ehrman’s case it feels like his dogmatic attachment to a historical Jesus comes from his childhood indoctrination as a Christian. He may have eventually as an adult & scholar lost his god-belief but is still so emotionally attached that some of his work gets corrupted. Meanwhile his devoted Christian audience members can feel justified that he as an atheist supports historical Jesus & his teachings, a sort of Jeffersonian approach.
He is just one example. So I am grateful to your work debunking so much poor scholarship – if it may be even called that sometimes. As a lifelong secular naturalist I find religious studies far more interesting from a truly critical historical analytical perspective.
On Oxford University becoming an apologetics mill see Exposing T.C. Schmidt’s Oxford Apologetics for the Testimonia Flaviana. There are many more examples. I no longer believe OUP is a reliable press.
But that’s the reason for my vetting the book myself. You can’t trust it merely because it’s coming from OUP.
That explains why OUP would publish Christian apologetical garbage.
The real question is why Dark writes Christian apologetical garbage.
He is not a Christian apologist. I am not aware that he is even a Christian. And his archaeology is decent and duly cautious. He only turns into a propagandist shill when he’s outside his particular field, lazily doing textual history to push a point he emotionally wants, rather than doing the hard work of questioning himself about it with more competence first.
What I see here is Dark simply reflecting institutional inertia: “the field” promotes that garbage, so he assumes it must be sound. It doesn’t occur to him to consider whether his field has become fraudulent and he should no longer trust the assumptions it has been barking at him probably since his first day in college. And I do believe that is a field-wide problem. And it shows in case after case, especially lately, where I think a decline in respect for truth and its replacement with prestige and social reputation has followed the overall culture of the Post Truth Era.
So it doesn’t occur to Dark that his arguments are stupid, because he was taught they aren’t. He does not yet realize that what he was taught was apologetics, not real critical historical reasoning. So he’s been unknowingly captured by the backroom influence of the Christian elite.
I would speculate even further about Ehrman’s attachment to Jesus. He believes through his scholarship he has found the true teachings of Jesus. He believes the historical Jesus taught that the Son of Man will one day come to separate the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats, a la Matthew 25:31-46. Ehrman believes the authentic teaching of Jesus included being judged on the basis of your works to help feed the hungry and poor. This is why he does so much genuinely good work to help the homeless and children through his charity, to be more in line with the true teachings of the master than even his former brothers of the Lord were and are. And thus, feel more authentically Christian than Christians. But again, this is pure speculation, just for fun arm chair psychoanalysis. Just a weird sense I have from the years of consuming his material. Maybe a 1 in 10 chance of being true?
That’s a hypothesis worth considering. But I’ve never seen that much attachment to that, other than for already-hypothesized reasons (like, his wife is a Christian so he needs Jesus to be awesome; or he fears he’d be ridiculed and lose social status if he besmirched Jesus or Christian colleagues and patrons; etc.).
By contrast, Dennis McDonald absolutely has a powerful and repeatedly-voiced motive to “be right” about what Jesus taught and thus to need Jesus to be real, so as to achieve his goal of rectifying Christianity as an international force, which waves him off ever conceding mythicism. That kind of specific mission and religious passion, I don’t see coming from Ehrman.
But maybe his new book (centering Jesus as the founder of Western civilization) clues us in to something like that?
Because otherwise, one does not need Jesus to be real to promote the values associated with him. Because a mythical moral exemplar remains a moral exemplar. For MacDonald, he needs historicity to establish authenticity for his Q-Plus hypothesis that establishes the specific new moral system he is selling (otherwise it dissolves into just another human idea among many). But does Ehrman need Jesus to be real to argue for charity being good? Pagans and Jews already argued that before Jesus. And modern philosophy grounds it in evidence and reason; Jesus doesn’t have to exist for any of that.
So I’m not sure. But it can go on the list of plausible hypotheses I guess.
I am only a few chapters into Ehrman’s latest book, Love Thy Stranger, and frustrated. He is an engaging writer. But I don’t have the background scholarship knowledge to counter his “christianity transformed moral teachings for all of Western Civilization” claims, they just seem simplistic so far. And cherry-picking. Like the loss of so much ancient science as collateral damage? But it does not pretend to be a balanced assessment. How did the crusades & pogroms & other not so loving Christian campaigns fit this? Internal sectarian strife? Modern Christian nationalism (no hate like Xian love?). Just more flawed humans defying the teachings again I guess. I will read on and see if Ehrman addresses such things.Yes it is a trade general interest book – but still.
I hope you will give it a thorough review when you can find the time – and would chip in to commission that!
From the jacket blurb: “From the earliest times through Greek & Roman antiquity, moral thinkers prioritized generosity toward friends & family….Jesus changed all this, introducing a revolutionary new eithical obligation to show love to those you don’t know…through acts of care….” Of course this also is through “canon goggles” as Litwa would say – the character Jesus of the “gnostic” gospels may have some other ideas too.
Anyway, I hope to see some properly critical (in the best sense of critical) reviews.
Regardless the texts & teachings he cites are the work of the anonymous gospel authors, not any proof of a factual historical Jesus.
Ok, back to reading, perhaps he will convince me.
Keep me apprised. I haven’t read LTS yet but have it and plan to. I suspect it’s already refuted by my previous work against the Holland argument (linked and summarized in No, Tom Holland, It Wasn’t Christian Values That Saved the West). But I won’t know for sure until I check.
One thing to check is if Ehrman completely blanks on xenia, the Greek principle of kindness to strangers; and whether he blanks on pre-Christian Jewish teachings similar. Indeed, so far as I know, there is no human civilization that ever lacked some version of xenia.
Even kindness to enemies is pagan. It is best advocated by Musonius Rufus but predates him; and it’s all over Confucianism and Buddhism, which both predate Christianity. It is elaborately discussed by Plato (whose fictional Socrates denounces the popular “eye for an eye” ethos and elaborately argues any harm even to an enemy is unjust in The Republic and The Gorgias).
Aristotle’s take on conflict resolution was more nuanced and rational (turning the other cheek is actually horribly bad philosophy) but even he discusses the importance of reconciling with enemies, in fact his entire political theory, the reason we need democracy, is to resolve conflicts with enemies peacefully by substituting discussion and community voting for violence, while avengement upon the recalcitrant should be rational and fair, not subject to anger (which, needless to say, is how all Christendom actually behaves, so Christians follow Aristotle, not Jesus).
And so on.
“Experts check. So that he didn’t tells us he is so driven by emotion on this point . . . ”
— Curious. Did you, RC, check any of Ken Dark’s assertions vis a vis René Salm’s arguments, citations and evidence and responses? You have not presented any evidence for having done so . . . . But I am sure you have addressed those arguments in detail somewhere, not by mere assertion and appeal to Dark’s (unchecked) authority.
You are an expert, after all, and you have acknowledged online that I myself am very thorough with the research behind what I write.
Several. In my article I note my general findings and even mention what to do about any specific claim.
I never said anything about any claim you specifically have ever made about Nazareth. So you seem to be emotionally distracted by assumptions about what I said that in fact I never said.
This is a problem, my friend. See to it.
I think if it turns out that Nina Livesey is right that Paul didn´t exist, or at least the Pauline Epistles are all forgeries (like you, I actually think that the accepted ones are real), then I think historicity is fairly stuffed, there´s nothing you can even remotely count as positive evidence in favour of the historicity hypothesis, even a fortiori as you do in OHJ.
I think this is something that needs to be appreciated more.
As it is, I think the mythicism hypothesis has been very unfairly dismissed, it´s never on the face of it seemed unreasonable to me, you´ve done all the hard work, as have others like Price and Lataster
Ironically, it’s almost the other way around: if all Paul is forged, we lose the best evidence against historicity. But we also lose the best evidence for it. If the Gospels (and 1 Clement and Hebrews) are also 2nd century, then the probability of historicity defaults to its prior. Which is pretty much the same place it ends up now after counting all evidence as favorably to historicity as possible. But in a sense you’re right. See my discussion of this in respect to the Livesey thesis.
Actually, thinking about it, I think what you say is right, you end up at the same place. You end up basically with your baseline odds in either situation, for all the reasons you give.
As it is, I agree with you, that Paul´s letters make a lot of sense on a mythicist reading and though you rightly argued A fortiori to the contrary, maybe they´re actually more consistent with mythicism
I also think you´re right that the agreed that the accepted Pauline letters are not forgeries, the style and the theology doesn´t look to me like something that a later author would deliberately fake.
One thing I am quite interested in, is the possibility of whether first Peter is genuine or not. Like you, I think Ehrman is being ridiculous when he says “oh a fisherman couldn´t have written that”, I think it´s obvious that this was just a literary tool in the Gospel of Mark. There are other reasons why people think it´s a forgery of course, not just that. It also seems to me that it´s talking about risks Christians might face, rather than concrete examples of state organised persecution (which is one argument I´ve heard for the later date).
It’s worth noting that there is a psychological difference, and I think you are noticing that here.
It operates like this:
A typical behavior is to say something like “Well, the Gospels are only 40-70 years after the fact and so count strongly for historicity because nearness correlates to reliability and 40-70 years counts as near,” which is false (that is not near, and that correlation principle does not exist for mythology; I address this in Ch. 6, esp. 6.7 Rapid Legendary Development). But if someone is emotionally persuaded by that faulty reasoning, they lose that emotional comfort when the Gospels and Epistles become 70-100 years after the fact. And so they are then emotionally moved away from confidence in historicity, even though they should have rationally moved away already at 40-70 years.
P.S. Yes, 1 Peter IMO could be more probably than not authentic (which is a “low confidence” yes). And Ehrman’s reasoning is multiply fallacious (I brief that here but give detail and cite more scholarship on the point in OPH, Ch. 4).
Yes, I very much liked reading OHJ as a book and I think it´s big contribution is that it pointed out lots of flaws in thinking about historicity.
I certainly left after reading it persuaded that the most common arguments for historicity were flawed.
I think sadly, whether we like it or not, psychological arguments will ultimately play a role. Like you, I really lament the state of much of the humanities, you do not deserve the treatment you have received from academia. It´s kind of depressing when the kind of institutions that are supposed to value new insights often tend to repress them instead.
Litwa in a couple of recent Patreon / Youtube posts makes I think a good case of 1 Clement (which he calls by its title) as 2nd c. https://youtu.be/2i2wJfO-JDM?si=bbg2w3kPMwcKdFMs
Also 2 Clement as possibly Valentinian.
https://youtu.be/2i2wJfO-JDM?si=bbg2w3kPMwcKdFMs
Neither by a bishop called Clement.
Would be interested in your take.
2 Clement is certainly unrelated. It never even claimed to be related. Calling it that was a late legend about the document, not a claim made in the document. It never says it is by anyone named that or by the author of 1 Clement, and never says when it was written, and thus never pretends to be anything other than what it is (a random sermon by a random person). The modern opinion that it is mid-second century is reasonable. It certainly predates the 4th century and post-dates the 1st.
1 Clement has no similarity to 2 Clement. And it cannot have been written after the 60s AD: see How We Can Know 1 Clement Was Actually Written in the 60s AD. If Litwa has any arguments not already refuted there, let me know what they are in comments there, and I’ll tell you what I think.
Richard, while studying Paul’s letters, I came to the conclusion that Matthew rewrote his teachings into an accessible myth for the masses. But then I discovered strange distortions in Paul that make Yahweh appear evil in Matthew’s eyes. And this is strange. For example, Paul says that we must be wise in what is good. He gives the example of the serpent being crushed underfoot in Genesis chapter 3. But Matthew rewrote this phrase and said, “Be wise as serpents.” This is the full quote from Genesis 3:1. It sounds like Jesus saying, “Be like the devil.” This is strange! Paul then says that we are unleavened. Leaven is not kosher. Yahweh dislikes leaven. But Matthew distorts this and writes, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven.” What is this?! These are contradictory statements. Moreover, Matthew clearly understood what he was writing, thereby criticizing Yahweh.
Note Mark is the one reifying Paul. Matthew is anti-Pauline. So Matthew is probably not using the letters of Paul at all.
Paul refers to the trope that serpents are cunning. Elsewhere he refers to God sending snakes to kill the disobedient Israelites. When Paul talks about trampling, he says Satan specifically, not serpents generally.
Matthew 10 does not touch on any of these statements or analogies. It clearly has no connection to anything Paul ever said. It’s just a collection of metaphors as pragmatic advice to missionaries (“be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves”), using the same trope that serpents are cunning, but in a different context and purpose. It is not a reference to Satan.
Matthew and Paul are also not talking about the same things when they use the metaphor of leavening. Those passages have nothing to do with each other. They are not even using the same trope.
Paul is using leavening as a metaphor for spoiling or corrupting, so that unleavened means simple, pure, honest. Hence Paul says Christians should renew and purify themselves and speak simple words with honesty. Matthew is using leaven as a metaphor not for impurity but pervasion, that’s why he doesn’t say “heaven is like leaven” but “heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough,” the metaphor is the whole sentence, the whole simile, not just the word “leaven.” The analogy intended is not to leaven’s sacral status but leaven’s ability to permeate everything and thus be everywhere at once, once “worked in” (referring to the mission to work the kingdom into the world like leaven into dough).
RC: “There is indeed plenty of archaeological evidence for early first-century Nazareth (see my last).”
Er, but your last post just repeated the assertion and pointed us to no undisputed evidence at all. You really should read scholarly critiques of Ken Dark’s methods and biases.
Better still, read Dark’s work critically for yourself — checking his footnotes and claims about the evidence in other reliable sources to be sure he is giving a comprehensive picture. Read Kuhn, too, and other specialists on Galilean archaeology.
I can also direct you to a 96% post grad essay I did that was critical of a notable archaeologist to show you how it can be done in a scholarly manner, if you like.
Neil, that’s evidence. To confuse “we have complaints about the evidence” with “we have no evidence” is precisely the fallacious reasoning I had in mind when I caught you over-trusting Salm. This is the argument of a crank. I explained in detail why the “complaints” are fallacious and thus do not remove the evidence, which is indeed quite abundant. You can go on ignoring that, and never recovering any point from it. But then I get to say that’s what you did. So you are going to have to pick a lane here.
I did. Indeed, I repeatedly refer to his shortcomings and where he goes wrong.
If you have caught this new book in an actual error, let’s see the receipts. That would be productive here. But please don’t refer me to opinions. I am talking about provable fallacies and errors, which are relevant (not irrelevant) to the conclusion.
Stop bloviating, and do the work. Stop asserting and give evidence. Or else please stop. Because this is just wasting everyone’s time here.
Dr. Carrier,
Concerning the “nobody would die for a lie” assertion. I seem to recall you (or maybe it was someone else) refuting that claim and giving at least one specific example of a time and place in History where that has happened.
Can you cite any specific examples and maybe explain the condition or scenario where that might be possible?
Thanks..
I will take this occasion to remind readers that my blog has a search box (on desktops, it is on the upper right margin; on other devices it might be right at the top).
If you used it to search “die for a lie” you would find:
Did the Apostles Die for a Lie?