This is another updated extract from Sense and Goodness without God that I’ve removed from its future edition (coming soon) because it’s an unnecessary use of wordcount there. So I am preserving a revised version of it here for posterity and utility. It is an account of how the world became Judeo-Christian-Islamic. Which wasn’t because those religions (which are really just versions of the same religion) had the best evidence or arguments or the most goodness or utility. It was because they murdered everyone who stood in their way, and converted survivors by coercion or bribery; and then sustained that prevalence by elite hook or crook ever since. Which means your mind was colonized by murderers. But for murder, you wouldn’t believe a word of it. You likely wouldn’t even have heard of it.
The relevant sources confirming what follows are literally any mainstream history of the world in general and religion in particular. But if you want a fun summary see Fitzgerald’s volumes on this. Or if you want to go straight to the high level mainstream scholarship, consult: Merry Wiesner-Hanks et al., A History of Western Society, vol. 1 (13th ed., 2019; or the more expensive 14th ed. from 2022) and vol. 2 (13th ed., 2019; or the more expensive 14th ed., 2023); with Judith Bennett & Sandy Bardsley, Medieval Europe: A Short History (12th ed., 2020), and primary sources like The Carolingian Chronicles (combining the Royal Frankish Annals and Nithard’s Histories) and Bede’s Ecclesiastical History of the English People.
To zero in on the bad stuff, a critical reading of Ellerbe, Hill & Cheadle, Nixey, and Freeman will help, but it is the academic mainstream accounts that will support what matters, because the apologetics against the Ellerbe to Freeman crew are largely false but figuring out where is distractive. Because when they are fact-checked honestly, their mistakes, if any, once corrected, leave the conclusions here intact. The rest is confirmed across many other studies, such as from Ramsay MacMullen’s histories of how Christianity dominated and abused society like a mafia (Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries; and Christianizing the Roman Empire: A.D. 100-400; and Paganism in the Roman Empire), to (for the example of contemporary America) Roger Finke, The Churching of America, 1776-1990: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy, and Stephen Prothero & Rodney Stark, American Jesus: How the Son of God Became a National Icon.
The Religious Landscape is Confused and Mundane
There are many reasons we can be sure gods don’t exist and all religions are false (see my atheism category for endless proofs). But among them is the fact that god-beliefs have not been produced by the actual existence of a god, but by interests and circumstances unrelated to solid evidence and sound argument. Which implies a god does not exist except as a false belief, for two reasons.
First, if a compassionate god exists, he would not allow people to damn or kill or deceive themselves in this way, but would nurture and guide them and steer them to the truth. Everyone would have been told the same thing, and been corrected when they got it wrong. Religious diversity across history and geography disproves every religion. Like any good person, a real god would correct us when we err, mediate between groups when our disagreements get out of hand, make sure to supply us with more reliable reasoning abilities, and give us clear and convincing evidence that his advice was sound.
I would do this, and surely I cannot be better intentioned and more compassionate than God. Of course, if God is not compassionate, he is unworthy of worship. But even then his complete disinterest in setting his subjects straight still remains inexplicable. Every evil god we have imagined was for that very reason far more involved in his creation. And all the same excuses apply if he weirdly wasn’t. But most god-beliefs are of a compassionate god, which certainly entails observations contrary to what we actually see. So those beliefs are probably false. Religions are endlessly fragmented in disagreement about the most important things about our salvation and our welfare, things no caring god would let us be confused about. So they are all false.
Second, if half the world falsely believes in Allah while the other half correctly believes in Christ, how do we know it isn’t the other way around? How can we even be sure any of the Big Religions are right? Maybe the Jews are right. Or the Zoroastrians for that matter. Or the Taoists or Deists…or the atheists! We should be able to tell by observing which religion has shown clear divine aid and approval—that is, which religion’s success is not explicable due to normal human cultural diffusion, but only due to divine inspiration or intervention, or the unassailable truth of the evidence for the divine. But when we look for this evidence, we are sorely disappointed. No religion shows any special heavenly support. To the contrary, all the largest theistic religions exhibit signs of a memetic virus rather than a healthy conquest of truth—as we’ll see—while smaller religions can’t claim anything special over their vastly more successful competitors. A real god wouldn’t allow that. So if the Big Religions are unaided by God, so are all the others. And that is simply evidence for atheism, which holds that there is no divine aid to be had, thereby more simply and easily predicting all these observations.
Religion Didn’t Win by Playing Fair
Indeed no empire-dominating religion in the history of its development and success shows any sort of divine backing. Rather, every single one shows a fallible, human, and often brutal history. As a virus impairs or kills its host, a viral meme impairs or kills your mind, your power of reason. Even those whose minds survive it act as carriers. So it is easy to see how the ultimate memetic equivalent of a virus would have nothing to do with things as harsh and difficult as the truth, but everything to do with silencing competing memes, preying upon our fallible intuitions, our ignorance, and our intellectual laziness, and stirring purely emotional attachment to the viral memes, which, sometimes, play to one’s selfish ego—like memes that tell a man he has the authority of Truth behind his every desire, and is the center of the universe, the purpose for which the whole cosmos was made, and that he will get everything he wants later if he plays the sheep now—or, other times, play upon one’s fears—like memes that tell a woman she will never really die, or that there really is no senseless chaos, but every boon and every misfortune is the intended outcome of Other Beings who can be blamed, thanked, or bribed.
This is often what people get out of the popular religions, painting a far less humble picture of humankind than godless naturalism does. It is ironic that, as if engaging in a classic Freudian “projection defense,” theists attack atheists for escaping fears and arrogantly trying to make themselves the center of the universe—when in fact atheists, at least naturalists, do the exact opposite. In our worldview, we are just another tiny byproduct of nature, special in no sense to anyone but among ourselves, subject to a plethora of random accidents and forces, and there is no perfect or supreme being at all, least of all us.
In contrast, it is theism that often encourages arrogance, making man the center of the universe, exaggerating his importance in the grand scheme of things, asserting his immortality and divine backing, making him more (and more important) than he really is, granting him the dangerous feeling that he has the Authority of the Almighty behind him, and that everything that happens is somehow deserved. In many ways like this, religion dazzles you with sweet talk, making it easy to forget (or you unwilling to admit) that it isn’t true.
If major religions have the attributes not of a memetically-propagated truth but of a memetic virus, this is itself a good reason to dismiss them. And once we’ve done that, we are back to zero, with no reason to believe in any alternatives but what the evidence alone presents. Which is godless naturalism and secular humanism.
So, is that where we’re at?
The first and strongest clue that religions are viruses rather than healthy truths is in their selfishness, a selfishness that makes no reference to humble or objective standards, or the actual pursuit of truth at all, but solely to their own preservation as beliefs, and the destruction, denigration or abandonment of all contrary beliefs even if they are true.
Compare:
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods.” … Show them no pity. Do not spare them or protect them. You must surely put them to death. … Stone him to death who tries to turn you away from the Lord your God.
Yahweh a.k.a. Allah a.k.a. Jesus (Deuteronomy 13:8–10)
The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’. These people are corrupt, they have done vile deeds. None of them do good.
King David (Psalms 14:1)
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. … Whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. … He who has believed and has been baptized will be saved, but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned … [And] this is how it will be in the end: the angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus Christ the Lord (Luke 14:26, John 3:18, Mark 16:16, Matthew 13:49–50)
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction.
Saint Paul (or so you were told: 2 Thessalonians 1:8–9)
Those who misbelieve and die while still in misbelief, on them is the curse of God, and of the angels, and of mankind altogether, and they shall dwell in Hell forever. Indeed, the torment shall not be lightened for them, nor shall they find mercy. … for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads, which shall melt what is in their bellies and their skins as well, and for them are whips of iron, and whenever they want to leave, from grief, they shall be turned back, and taste the chastisement of burning.
O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!
The Book of Mormon (2nd Nephi 28:15)
Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)
What do we see right away? There is a radical difference between Jefferson’s religion and all these others. His was an Enlightenment Deism that rejected the divinity of Jesus, the existence of miracles, and the authority of the Bible, and accepted in their place secular ideals of science and humanism. His religion is best defended and explained by another Founding Father of the United States, Thomas Paine, in his three-volume work The Age of Reason.
We see no selfish meme in Jefferson’s religion, but the exact opposite: a meme encouraging doubt and inquiry, defending it as morally good, even approved by God. His religion is nonviral. So are many other minority religious views today, like contemporary Deism, or Philosophical Taoism, or the kinder, gentler Christian Methodism of my childhood, or Christian Universalism, which is undogmatic, humble in its assertions, tolerant of alternative views, and always encouraging doubt, independent thought, and investigation into other religions. Which are all condemned as a heretical threat to the world by the majority of Christians, Mormons, Muslims, or Jews, reflecting the predatory memes just compared.
By contrast, most of the religions whose holy books I just quoted outright condemn and slander not only atheists and doubters, but anyone of a different religious creed. That is a sign of a virus, not anything true or good. For threats are the hallmark of a wicked creed, the surest sign of being false. And these religions must be wicked indeed, for they all make terrifying threats against doubters and unbelievers. The reasons why many of the major religions persist today reinforce this conclusion.
To the Victor Goes the Spoil
It is obvious that religion is attractive because it provides easy and comfortable answers to the Big Questions of Life. It is a handy explanation for every mystery, an easy way to bear every evil, deny our mortality, and condemn anyone who doesn’t conform to our ideals. And it doesn’t require much independent thought. This is, after all, what most people use their religion for, no matter how much religious reformers try to get them to stop, or apologists try to deny and hide all this behind a shiny curtain of bullshit.
But the most fundamental reason for the persistence of religious beliefs is the very simple fact that we believe as we are taught. Tradition and popular opinion can take decades to change, and usually do so only when they jeopardize success or survival, or when people slowly come to their senses and their sensibilities rub off on their children. As Thomas Paine once said, “time makes more converts than reason.” It was only six human lifespans ago that we were still hanging witches; and barely four lifespans ago when natives of America were widely condemned as worshipers of Satan and classified as animals rather than human beings—in spite of their often superior moral character and their rather suspicious resemblance to ordinary men and women. It was just two generations ago when people with black skin were openly regarded as biologically inferior to people with white skin, and this convention was so thoroughly and widely held that even some black people believed it was true. It was barely twenty years ago when people thought communism was the evil result of godlessness, and yet the Soviet Union had barely dissolved before religious tensions broke out there into waves of ethnic cleansing. Clearly God had never left many of these peoples’ minds, nor was his presence on their minds any guarantee of good behavior.
All of these ideas and more were perpetuated because of the simple rule of social learning. We are literally surrounded every day by the cultural references and effects of Christianity in America. Many of us grow up being told that God exists and that Jesus was his son and loves us, that there is a heaven that we go to when we die or, just as conveniently, a hell for those who are bad or who don’t believe in the rest of it. We even grow up believing that the Bible is a holy and good book without ever having read it. Christians take all of this for granted, and then use these widespread beliefs and notions as proof they have it right. Yet they conveniently put out of their minds the other half of the world’s population that lives with very different religious convictions. Muslims grow up just as honestly believing that the Koran is the inerrant message of God, and that everyone who dies defending the faith is guaranteed a place in paradise, while those who do not recognize Allah as the true God are infidels destined to hellish wrath. They use the same evidence to prove their case, and the things they believe, the superstitions they hold, are just as real and profound to them as Christ’s love is to those growing up in Christian cultures—a love that most readily reframe into abusive loathing.
The sciences of psychology and sociology and anthropology have taught us how much of what we take for granted is actually learned, taught to us by other people or the environment from the day we open our eyes. In fact, almost everything we take for granted is entirely learned, even things as rudimentary as how to eat or have sex or care for our young. Genetics may influence how we perceive, how we feel, or how we physically develop or react to our environment, but most of what we do and think (in many cases, even how we think) is taught to us, either through trial and error or by our parents or teachers or society in general, through test, example, and education.
Even our concepts of God and an immortal soul are taught to us. This is driven home by the fact that many cultures have existed that did not believe in personal immortality, and the vast majority of cultures throughout history have held a belief in many gods, not merely one—and the gods’ appearance, character, temperament, advice, and abilities are as endless in diversity as the cultures themselves, reflecting the ideals of each culture more than any real cosmic truth. Since the designs and moral expectations of every god and religion differ, and they cannot be reconciled, it would be quite impossible to attempt to find any common thread among all religions that is not already common to human beings in general. Wisdom always remains true even with all the supernatural removed. Love, for instance, is not a religious virtue, but a human one, and no religion is needed to define or explain it. Likewise, justice is a gift of necessity in any society, and religion is merely its sometimes-cheerleader, not its origin. Hammurabi invented The Law a long time before Moses distorted it.
Christianity is no different. As society has changed from a feudal and agricultural existence to a democratic and industrial one, our view of God—his character, temperament, and physical description—has changed accordingly. Once upon a time the Christian God was a god of wrath who actually approved of killing and torturing people who didn’t believe in him, a God who condemned women to inferiority through the folly of Eve, a God who chose our kings for us and was quite unmistakably male (for only Adam was created in His image). Now, popular opinion holds God to be indescribable, conveniently androgynous, and even a staunch advocate of freedom and democracy—an attitude suspiciously absent from God’s plan until the philosophers of the Enlightenment, not religious leaders, brought it back up less than four centuries ago. Indeed, it took nearly two thousand years since some felony fraudster pretended Saint Paul wrote “do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man” (1 Timothy 2:12) before women achieved the right merely to vote in the United States. It’s been barely fifty years since they were allowed to own a credit card. But for endless centuries, the right to participate in government was denied to women because it was truly believed that God did not approve of such a thing. Did God change his mind? Or were all the Apostles and Priests wrong about what God approved of? If they were wrong about what God thought then, they are just as likely wrong about anything else now. Probably more likely. We know a lot more now; while they were ignoromaniacal sinners.
Likewise, reincarnation is as much a certainty to a Hindu as the salvation of Christ is to a Christian. A child growing up in a Hindu culture truly believes in the love of Krishna or the force of spiritual destiny. To them, the power of karma and the fate it engenders is simply accepted as a fact. Likewise, a child growing up in a Buddhist culture truly believes that seeking refuge in the Compassionate One’s teaching will save them from unfavorable reincarnations.
All of which shows that the religion you believe to be true is rarely decided by you, but by where you are born (see The Outsider Test for Faith for a detailed defense of this point). Not many Christians are to be found in Iran, nor are there many Muslims in Mexico. Most Buddhists are found in the Far East, and Hindus are mostly in India. Religion throughout the entire world is largely tied to culture, and the culture you are born into is ultimately determined by chance. Christianity is as much a cultural circumstance to an American as Buddhism is to a Tibetan.
But that is not the sum of it. Christianity, as with all religions, started in one tiny place, when the rest of the Earth was populated by a wildly marvelous diversity of religious beliefs—and yet, curiously enough, the concept of warfare over religious differences was virtually nonexistent. Most people in ancient times believed it was proper to respect the gods of other peoples. This changed on a global scale when Christianity was spread, quite literally, by the sword. Those who attempted to assert their religious differences were harassed, tortured, robbed of their land and belongings, even killed. Before it achieved political power, Christianity was a small sect, a heresy against the Jewish faith, that had to accept equality among all the other religions of the Roman Empire. Yet it was the first religion to openly attack the religions of other people as false (the Jews, at least, were a little more tactful). Needless to say, Christianity only truly flourished when it had the ability to eliminate the competition—when it had the full support of Rome’s Emperors after 313 A.D., and when, in 395 A.D., every religion other than Christianity was actually outlawed.
Through force and decree Christianity was immersed in the cultural surroundings of lands near and far, and in an environment where it was widely accepted, if not the only thing accepted, indeed even allowed, it spread and planted itself among subjugated peoples. As kids grew up taking Christian ideas for granted, they often did not realize that only a few generations ago those ideas were entirely alien. Colonization of the world, more often than not by robbery and warfare, spread Christianity into the Americas and other corners of the earth, just as Islam was spread throughout Asia and Africa.
It is not a coincidence that the two most widespread religions in the world today are the most warlike and intolerant religions in history. Before the rise of Christianity, religious tolerance, including a large degree of religious freedom, was not only custom but in many ways law under the Roman and Persian empires (as likewise in Chinese and Hindu empires). They conquered for greed and power, rarely for any declared religious reasons, and actually sought to integrate foreign religions into their civilization, rather than seeking to destroy them. People were generally not killed because they practiced a different religion. Indeed, the Christians were persecuted for denouncing alternative beliefs as a demonic evil—not for following a different religion. In other words, Christians were persecuted for being intolerant.
Such absolute religious intolerance is an idea that found its earliest expression in the Old Testament, where the Hebrew tribe depicts itself waging a campaign of genocide on the Palestinian peoples to steal their land. Yes, thousands of years now, and their leaders are still feverishly committed to the same genocide. They originally justified this heinous behavior on the grounds that people not chosen by their god were wicked and therefore did not deserve to live or keep their land. In effect, the wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian peoples, eradicating their race with the Israelis’ own Final Solution, was (and thus still is) the direct result of a policy of religious superiority and divine right. Joshua 6–11 tells this sad founding genocidal myth. And one need only read it and consider the point of view of the Palestinians who were simply defending their wives and children and the homes they had built and the fields they had labored for.
The actions of the ancient Hebrews can easily be compared with the American genocide of its native peoples—or even, ironically, the Nazi Holocaust. With the radical advent of Christianity, this self-righteous intolerance was borrowed from the Israelites, and a new twist was added. The conversion of infidels by any means possible became the newfound calling card of religious fervor, and this new experiment in human culture spread like wildfire. By its very nature, how could it not have? Islam followed suit, conquering half the world in brutal warfare and, much like its Christian counterpart, it developed a new and convenient survival characteristic: the destruction of all images and practices attributed to other religions. By contrast, for a good while the Jews abandoned their evil dreams of forcible dominion—and in result, contrary to antisemitic mythology, failed to take over the world, but declined into a trivial minority under the thumb of the evangelistic murderers, because evangelistic murder always wins. Until you conjure a greater force to stop it—as the Founding Fathers originally did. Though Christians today lie about that and claim it was them who built the first world force against religious villainy—when they were the villains it was built to repel.
Meanwhile, Muslims destroyed millions of statues and paintings in India and Africa, and forced conversion under pain of death (or by more subtle tricks: like taxing only non-Muslims), while the Catholic Church busily burned books along with pagans, shattering statues and defacing or destroying pagan art—or converting it to Christian use, genocidally burying it under the gravedirt of their lies. Laws against pagan practices and heretics were in full force throughout Europe by the sixth century, and as long as those laws were in place it was impossible for anyone to refuse the tenets of Christianity and expect to keep their property or their life. Similar persecution and harassment continues in Islamic countries even to this day, officially and unofficially.
Many cultures were won merely by converting their kings or chieftains, who, in return, required their subjects to adopt the new faith of their ruler “or else.” Still others mistook the numerical and technological superiority of their conquerors as evidence that they had the better god, and so the Christians exploited their superstition to gain their unearned faith. Thus, the spread of Christianity was not due to its truth, God’s grace, or its unique attractiveness to foreign people. Simply imagine two competing religious points of view, one holding the idea that other religions are to be respected and that war is justified only in defense, the other holding that war (and the threat of war, or any violence or abuse) is justified in converting infidels to the only true faith, and that this faith must by its very calling be spread across the world. Which religion will survive and grow, and which will be stamped out and forgotten? The answer is self-evident—and yet it has nothing to do with which religion is actually true.
So that is how Christianity got in our backyard. It is a logical result of brutal, murderous, cultural evolution. The ultimate memetic virus, it developed unique characteristics ideal for its survival and domination. It had by its very nature a calling to spread itself throughout the world, and it rejected, even to the point of physical obliteration, alternative religious views. This demeanor still resides deep within Christian thought today. Christians view their faith and ideology as “right” and all other religions as just superstitions, whose followers are not just misguided but an existential threat to the world—even misled by Satan—even though they know virtually nothing about those other religions, and hardly much more about their own. Ultimately, most Christians generally accept the “fact” that non-Christians will not be saved, since by definition “salvation” belongs only to those who have faith in Christ (this is the very heart of the New Testament teaching, as stated in Matthew 10:28–40, 12:30–32, Mark 16:16, John 14:6, etc.).
The attitude of Muslims is identical. Those who reject Mohammed and fail to follow the Koran are doomed. They do not permit any discussion of the matter, for it is a certainty. Indeed, atheism is still punishable by death in many Muslim countries. Even where it is technically legal it is still a death sentence, from gun-toting Muslim fanatics who have no qualms about taking justice into their own hands. Most people think this has always been an attitude common to religion in general, but that is not true. Most religions in history had plenty of room to accept other views as valid. Even Taoism and Buddhism, to their eternal credit, have rarely opposed or attacked competing religions, and have co-existed happily and constructively with each other, and with countless folk beliefs and festivals, for over two thousand years. Sadly, attacked and infected by Islamic-Christian doctrines of brutal righteousness, violent fundamentalist movements are now rising among Indian Hindus and Sri Lankan Buddhists, but these remain unusual exceptions in the history of religion—and are actually part of the Judeo-Christian plague narrative.
In contrast, the intolerance among the two fiercest Western religions, Christianity and Islam, very often led to the permanent elimination of competing faiths. Because of their intrinsic exclusiveness and intolerance, countless other religious ideas—ideas that might have been nobler or even truer—never had a chance to grow or survive. Thus, today it seems that other religions are small or rare or obsolete, when in reality this is only because they have never been tolerated or given a chance once Christo-Islamic Imperialism swept the world like a disease.
However, though this intolerance has paved the way, it is the missionary aspect of these religions that is the most significant reason for their pervasiveness in the world today. For the three most widely practiced religions—Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism (Hinduism isn’t very popular outside India)—root themselves in the idea that the “faith” must be spread to all people. It is probable that without this missionary calling Americans would almost certainly be polytheistic, having accepted and adopted many of the religious and cultural ideas of the Native American peoples, perhaps having imported many of the old Greco-Roman deities as well, or interpreting them as the same. Instead, we wiped them all out in our god-sanctioned zeal. This was the fault of a new breed of intolerant, missionary religion called Christianity.
So the new idea that only one religion is true and all others are evil or false, and the idea that this true faith must be carried across the globe in order to save everyone from a magical mythical doom, are the very attributes that guaranteed the survival of Christianity and Islam, and the elimination of nearly all other religions in the world. Both these characteristics are much more plausible explanations for the widespread acceptance of Christianity and Islam than the claim that “they are widespread because they are true” or “this is evidence of God’s design.” How could both Christianity and Islam credit their spread to their unique truth? Clearly, at least one of them has to be false, proving that such vast success does not need truth behind it. And they can’t both be the result of God’s design, unless God is confused. What instead they do have in common (and not in common with Buddhism) is mass, continuous murder, giving usable weight to a pervasively pursued threat of unrelenting harassment, sociopolitical exclusion, dispossession, onerous taxation, or exile. Not honest persuasion.
So the claims of theologians don’t hold water in light of plain observation. Even the equally widespread presence of the “godless” view of Buddhism puts such claims into serious question. The fact is that we believe in God and an immortal soul because of the missionary zeal and religious intolerance intrinsic to the Christian religion, and its readiness to bullying and violence for over a thousand years. We owe our superstitious ideas to sword and gun and flame. In this corner of the globe, the Christian church was the victor, and our minds were the spoil.
This is all standard, established history. Any mainstream college textbook will reveal the details (I gave you a list here at the top), and one can follow its bibliography for more. You can likewise find any contrary myth exploded by actual facts (e.g. Armenia did not spontaneously become Christian under honest persuasion; and the tools of coercion are not limited to holding literal swords to necks).
Dissent is Checked at the Door
We can see why a particular religion and its superstitious beliefs can surround us and permeate our cultural heritage, but why haven’t we outgrown it? Of course, we are still a very immature, superstitious species, as the popularity of psychic hotlines, astrology, and alien conspiracy theories proves. But certainly, we have made advances in common sense? Most people generally regard black people as equal to everyone else in rights and abilities, Native Americans are widely accepted as moral human beings, and the more sensible folk know that soviet-style communism failed because it was a bad economic system, not because it abandoned religion (which it did not—the Russian Orthodox Church remained alive and well throughout the communist legacy, as Catholicism has in Cuba, and other religions in every other communist state).
So why are convictions still so strong when it comes to the certainty of such amazing claims as God and heaven or the miracles of Jesus? Though theologians still answer this question with the claim that it is evidence of their truth and God’s grace in the world, the real answer is that many are essentially afraid not to believe, a fear whose encouragement is built into each religion itself—as we saw, for example, in the quotations from scripture above. Besides threats of hell, we face an almost insurmountable degree of peer pressure when it comes to our religious convictions. Some still say to themselves that if everyone else believes it, it must be true. After all, how could so many people be that crazy or misguided? Some might jokingly call this the “lemming” effect, but it is no small force in society. Ask yourself how often you have held a serious critical discussion about the reasons and evidence supporting your beliefs. If you think about it carefully you might realize that the support for some of your beliefs is so vague or weak that the same reasons and experiences could just as easily support any religion on earth, including voodoo and alien mind control.
In contrast, as atheists know better than anyone else on the planet, if you say you don’t believe you often become a social outcast. You might already know this, from the past generation having seen people in movies or read about them in books, characters who displayed doubt, who didn’t believe in God or immortality or claims of the paranormal, were often portrayed in a negative light. Magic, ghosts, psychic powers, or answered prayers always seem to catch them off guard, proving they are wrong. Or they were presented as feeling empty or amoral or an asshole, despairing at the cold realities they attempt to grasp. Of course, this was fiction far apart from reality. Atheists have always been generally quite happy and asserted in their principles, while magic, ghosts, psychic powers, or answered prayers are continually proven fictitious.
Nevertheless, preachers and other devout individuals continually bombard us with the message that our misfortune, confusion, or despair is to be blamed on our lack of faith—rather than our lack of effort and attention to life, or a government and economy run by a kleptocratic mafia, which are much more self-evident explanations. This is merely evidence of a fact present in all cultures: dissent is feared, and must often be checked at the door. In contrast, if we accept belief, especially if we go to church, we are surrounded by a group of like-minded people, rather than being labeled an outcast or looked at strangely or harassed with attempts to return us to the faith. We gain an invaluable sense of community, a sense of joy and belonging.
This is also why when people convert to a religion, it is almost always to one socioculturally available to them, where they can gain material and social advantages. No one suddenly becomes a devout worshiper of Athena. And there is a reason for that that is not the state of the evidence. Thus, the human desire to be accepted, to be a part of something, contributes to religion. And for that reason churches have long been masters of advertising: just like selling soup or diet pills, if you associate your product with Mom and Apple Pie and Everything Good, and claim it will solve all your problems and really pay off in the end for just $19.99, a lot of people will buy it. But that “platform lock-in,” the same thing that traps people in using either Apple or PC, iPhone or Android, came from murder—centuries and centuries of it. The rest was just inertia.
Finally, there is one thing people naturally fear. It is so frightening to us that when we face it we often attempt to ignore it, distracting ourselves endlessly in every possible way. And no, I do not mean death. That’s often a factor. But there are plenty of lies you can believe to escape that fear that don’t require attaching yourself to the most popular drug in your market. No. I find it’s more common in “exit interviews” for ex-Christians to report their terror of hell rather than fear of death as keeping them in the fold. Which is basically just a legal way to threaten people with murder, thus re-illustrating my point. Rather, the feared fate I am speaking of now is the loss of a basis for our values. Often, racist and sexist and callous values. But even when not, the effect is the same. Since we have rarely been given any chance or encouragement to explore alternative worldviews, if we reject our superstitious beliefs, our local murder-bought religion, we lose the basis of the only philosophy we know. We lose our cultural identity and our moral roots.
That is no trivial matter. This is, in my opinion, the single greatest reason that religion is perpetuated in every culture, and why it endures in any individual—it is even more important than habit, peer pressure, or, indeed, fear of death or even hell. Sometimes if we lose our faith, circumstances allow a swift replacement. We seek out another religion, or another finds us. More often than not, however, we simply end up confused and neglect to bother with the issue, living by some undefined standard of conduct that we borrow from our surroundings, becoming superficial or apathetic by default. This is then blamed on a “lack of faith” by the religious, and unless we think about it for a minute we might make the mistake of thinking they’re right.
But the truth is, it is not a “lack of faith” that drives people to act selfishly or to otherwise become deficient in compassion and integrity, but the lack of a philosophy—or the lack of a sound and constructive one. Because even the religiously devout are often wanting in character and moral integrity, and there is no lack of faith among them (indeed, conservative Christianity is demonstrably criminogenic). Indeed, most need their religion to justify their villainies and bigotries, reclassifying them as righteous and salvific. They don’t want to admit they are evil. Because that would be a harsh pill. But whether it’s apathetic masses or wayward Christians, even nice Christians, they simply lack a philosophy firmly based in reality, and its flaws become expressed in their behavior and attitudes. Hence that is what is missing. Not faith.
It is absolutely crucial to have a sound and successful philosophy of life, and yet almost no one studies philosophy. It is rarely taught in public schools—in fact, it is barely even taught in universities unless a student specializes in the field. The books available in stores or libraries are often dry, and almost as often polluted by unsound thinking, or obscured behind high-brow jargon and symbols, or divorced from any relevance to everyday life. Rarely are complete and understandable philosophies of life available by the book, clearly written, to be studied, compared, selected. Of course, so few people even bother to look. Religion does not benefit by teaching its pupils to investigate other philosophies, nor does religion prosper by giving people the tools to think, but only by giving them the tools to believe.
And that requires suppressing freethought. After all, if everyone found and embraced reasons to be good and enjoy life without the religious superstitions claimed to be necessary, religion would become obsolete—a fate, I imagine, that believers and their churches, and the fat cats feeding off of them like parasites, cannot emotionally or economically afford.
Conclusion
Religion is also seen as a medicine, curing grief and fear of death, for example—and in principle (though rarely in practice) healing divisions and hatreds in society and thus bringing peace. But there are secular ways to all these same ends, which lack the singular fault of Big Religion. This fault is the selfish and arrogant condemnation of doubt and difference inherent in Christianity and Islam, a feature that has in practice fragmented rather than united society, fostering war and violence of every kind, healing grief and fear only through false comforts whose side-effects are often a detriment to society in the end. Religions are full of bad ideas, and yet they encourage a fanaticism and a bigotry in favor of such ideas that is altogether unhealthy. And they do this solely because that is what permitted them to survive. Their virulence and toxicity is ruinous, but more poisonous to better competing ideas that they inherently condemn, lie about, and suppress by every tool they are allowed to use.
Now, whether the Koran, or the Bible, or any other religious text contains noble ideas is not the point here. Noble ideas stand on their own. They do not need “holy” texts to support them. They do not need miracles, or religious systems or supernatural entities, in order to possess their nobility. Wisdom is wisdom, from wherever it comes, and for all practical utility we should seek it where it is most carefully, correctly and usefully described and explained. I rarely find this to be the case in any religious text. Philosophy has been far more successful at this, with a better grasp of the concept of explanation, definition, and logical analysis and argument.
And all Great Literature captures the essence of things in beautiful prose or verse and moving and edifying stories. Thus, there is nothing that religious texts have to offer that is not better said in philosophical texts—especially those written well for a popular readership—and in profound and moving fiction. If, then, religious texts like the Koran are all just ancient human works of a mortal and fallible toxic piety, we should not be obsessed with them, or revere them as anything other than they are—the cultural dogmas of ancient peoples. Instead, we should seek wisdom in art, reason, logical argument, and scientific investigation. Thus, I reject the Koran, and all holy scriptures like it, because it is a human, fallible, primitive work of a bygone age, ineloquent and inappropriate for our times. It might (maybe) have some salvageable virtues, in some of its moral teachings, or its literary quality or historical interest, but these do not justify making a religion out of it. Too much else has been better written and is better informed.
In the final analysis, the only reason you or anyone today is a Christian or a Muslim is because your forebears murdered their way into your mind. Had Christianity and Islam behaved peacefully and with tolerance and acceptance, and taught rather than threatened, abused, and poisoned to crush and displace its competitors and dominate society like an abusive tyrant, no empire would ever have been Christian or Islamic. The religions you would find familiar and socially accepted and providing of all the things you want, from answers to community, kindness and honesty, would be tolerant heathen pantheons. There might still have been corruption and villainy, but it wouldn’t have been the norm, and it would more freely and easily have been called out and diminished.
Hindu Nationalism is pretty awful, for example, but that is also a product of the Chriso-Islamic infection that therefore might never have existed but for their diseased ideas of intolerance and mafialike evangelism. And even had that come to exist in Hinduism somehow anyway, we see far more open rejection of it by the faithful because they are allowed to reject it—and even when they aren’t, it is just as obvious what has to end to regain their freedom: toxic murderous evangelistic intolerance. But you can’t get rid of that without getting rid of the conceit that only one religion is true and all else are existentially damned. That is the poison. And that poison is so inherent in the very DNA of Christianity and Islam that I do not see any possible way you can ever have a successful version of either that truly abandons it. Once any version does, it soon dissolves into a merely reasonable secularism—often within three generations, like anything else. That’s why no such version of Christianity widely exists anywhere—without literal state welfare.
Even what has changed somewhat in the last twenty years has changed exactly as predicted: the more that Christians relax their reliance on exclusivism and abusive evangelism, the more they leave. Europe is already well ahead of America on this. We’ll catch up eventually. While they’ll continue their dissolution of this obsolete murder cult. The same holds even for Islam, which likewise dissolves at the same rate on contact with Western freedom. Any Muslim immigrant family has become just like everyone else by the third generation there.
Attempts to “out birth” us just end up making more atheists. Because believing in a de facto murder cult isn’t genetic. And freedom, once tasted, is corrosive to oppression. But that these death cults have been shamed and eroded by freethought into softer, milder versions of their vicious prior manifestations is only a lesson for their future demise. They control Western society today because of their past rampant murderousness across Europe and global colonization, and all its threats and abuses ever after, from Inquisitions to Manifest Destiny, from the Hundred Years War to Joe McCarthy, from Jim Crow to Islamophobia, from the Armageddon Lobby to the Gaza Genocide, from the Pledge of Allegiance to Dobbs v. Jackson.
Christianity and Islam cannot survive true religious freedom because they only exist today because of their core DNA of religious oppression. By violently colonizing the globe, Christianity colonized your mind. You are only a Christian or a Muslim because of mass global murder. Not because of evidence, utility, or wisdom.
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Hi Richard! Much has occured since last we were together in Marietta, PA. I know you’ve experienced life changes as well. I hope you are well, and happy! I’m guessing you are somewhere in the Antebellum South. Do keep in touch!
Hello! Yes. Glad to hear from you again. I am in Georgia now (Atlanta area). And priced out of travel by the economy now so pretty much stuck there.
Great article. I believe people never leave the religion they are born into. They spend their lives accepting it, questioning it, or running away from it.
To be fair, we know “never” is not true, as there was a mass exodus in America over the last three decades. And about half the defectors went to atheism (the rest to woo and vague nondemoninational theisms, which I guess still counts as progress, and probably part of an inevitable path to atheism as well).
Based on the experience of the rest of the developed world, I expect that to continue, and at a rate proportional to social welfare. Because studies show people cling to religion the more their government isolates them in poverty, crime, abandonment, and ruin. As states enact real social welfare laws and infrastructure that substantially improves the well being and prosperity of its citizens, the more they abandon religion. Which is probably why the American Christian lobby is entirely backing impoverishment and criminogenic policies.
Going to atheism is what I meant by running away (in the opposite direction). My take away from reading your writings on logic, is that in this situation there can only be acceptance, modification, or rejection (substitution). That seems absolute and all encompassing. Are there additional alternatives such that using the term never would not apply?
I think I just misunderstood what you meant by “never leaving.” If that’s inclusive of “leaving but still being stuck in the religion’s culture” (and thus never being able to really get away from it, you’re either struggling with it or fighting it or giving in to it, even if you no longer believe in it), then I think you’ve covered all the realistically available options.
“Never” isn’t true, but if you soften that statement to “it always leaves an impact on you”, it could be true, though rather trivial. I’m no longer Catholic, but I won’t deny that a twinge of fear still sometimes runs over me if I read some solemn declaration about excommunications and whatnot. There’s a small part of the lizard brain that retains a worry that somehow, someway, the magic words might work this time, if only there are enough of them arranged properly. They’re so solemn, and in a spooky ritual language! It’s the same reason why I still feel cagey about Satanism, even knowing what it’s really about – I just have too many dyed-in prejudices to ever feel comfortable with the concept. Maybe if I actually met some.
Theist, former Christian here. If you are open to dissenting voices then may I suggest that the original intent of each religion’s founder was to facilitate the individual’s direct experience with the divine. Each human was to become his own Christ, Buddha, etc. Almost every religion starts with its original mystic/founder who experienced the divine and interpreted the experience through the language, culture, environment that he was born into. Subsequent to the founder’s original experience, later church authorities create the dogmas and exclusivity in order to control the masses. Therefore, the founders are arguably the messengers of the divine, the angels, the apostles, the prophets, the sages, the buddhas, the christs, the magi, etc., … throughout human history with a message of liberation for the human race. The founders.
In Christianity’s case that founder was a Jew named Paul and his letters do NOT describe a single supernatural event in his lifetime. They describe a Wisdom (ie., Christ) rising in the soul of changed individuals leading to ethical behavior and compassion for his fellow humans. The technical jargon was based on Hebrew metaphors, types, and symbols (that is all he had to work with) but the pure essence remains the same in all religions. That is the original intent of Christianity’s founder who was a true light to his generation before the night came (ie., the Roman Church). Now that light rises on the horizon once again to fill the earth, and you my friend have trumpeted the end of night before the dawn. So dont give up on religion just yet. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, for the dawn is upon us in the critical thinking, evidenced based, rational, free world, just as it was in Hellensitic times.
Of course what the originators wanted is irrelevant. Their original vision was swallowed and evaporated in Darwinian fashion by the resulting monstrosity that took over the world. Which is how we know no founders had any ear to God, as otherwise they’d have anticipated the inevitable corruption and extinction of their entire project. Religious founders were thus all fools. And accordingly we should never be taking advice from them.
By comparison, rational thinkers—philosophers—never imagined such vainglorious dreams as you describe. Except Plato, whose fascist woo became the backbone of global Vaticanism in Late Antiquity, and of all current fascist and parafascist political movements and ideologies—and lo, their success is also due to their Drawinian brutality, intolerant evangelism, and suppression of dissent. But everyone else promoted questioning and critical thinking, evidence-based reasoning, and an empirical pursuit of intellectual and physical and social progress. Exactly what no religious founder ever recommended.
That is, in fact, the difference between religionists and philisophers. Religionists claim unquestionable access to ultimate truth (like you just did). Philosophers claim we can’t ever have that and can only keep doing our best to build and question as evidence provides over time, if we remain questioning and critical. Only one of those approaches to life is advisable and successful.
You are generalizing. Although the loudest voices in Christian apologetics denies modern archaeological evidence and lacks critical thinking skills, a minority of lesser known “religionists” have made significant progress, although, piece by piece. It is only a matter of time before all the pieces come together as one whole. There is a natural, historical development for the christian faith from its beginning founded on ethics, wisdom, and love.
Sorry, that isn’t a coherent response to anything I said.
Any reasonable way of thinking about the problem of building a connection to the divine and the sublime has to include the idea that there may be empty sets in those categories.
If by “empty set” you mean pure potentiality and not “zero”, then the ground of being or indescribable source of cosmos is the empty set whereas, manifest existence (ie., cosmos) as we know it would be {1}. Negative theology is one way to characterize the divine.
That doesn’t make any coherent sense.
If you meant (though I suspect you don’t) that nothingness can have caused everything, thus “God” is not a person or a thing with thoughts and feelings, but literally nothing, then you’d be right.
But if you meant (as I suspect) that God can still exist as a person with thoughts and feelings but only be defined negatively, you are contradicting yourself. I’ll let you think about that one for a while in the hopes that you notice the self-refuting contradiction there.
And even if you fixed that contradiction, you lose empirically: see the “atheism” category in my dropdown menu (upper right margin on desktop browsers here).
Actually, there’s some interesting theistic philosophy here, that’s sort of interesting on its own navel-gazing terms.
Maimonides basically argued that the transcendence of God meant that any attempt to describe positive attributes would inherently limit the scope of what was being described. It’s an interesting perspective on the function of language, and I think an interesting counter to the Platonic idea that language is in fact channeling a superior truer understanding. Maimonides’ idea of God depended on a simple, elegant unity, and in his perspective, describing God as a cluster of positive attributes undermined that unity. Only by describing negatively could one avoid that.
It’s a really fascinating perspective following from some odd assumptions, and I think he was onto something, at least pragmatically. For example: I respond to the Platonic version of the moral argument, the “God’s nature” argument, by arguing that God has many attributes, so when you’re discussing God’s good nature, once you’ve done the work to define what you mean by that, you’ve defined goodness and so you don’t need God anymore. Just like you don’t need God to define what power is, or knowledge is.
Except that, of course, Maimonides was essentially refuted by Chomsky and Wittgenstein.
That is not how language works at all. No word is 100% precisely descriptive of any single thing. All language is “point toward, not exhaust.” To exhaustively describe anything would requite a digital readout of a referent’s subatomic particle arrangements longer than all the books ever published, plus a similar readout of all its physical context.
So, no, we don’t get to get God off the hook by saying he can only be negatively described because positive descriptions are incomplete. By that reasoning, even your lunch’s existence is a mystery you cannot describe, and lizard people must rule the Earth because they can only be described negatively so no evidence against them is possible. And other like nonsense.
It’s just bad linguistics. And even worse logic.
Indeed, concepts routinely describe both a trait and its absence, or multiple traits and multiple absences, simultaneously. One of the many problems with Maimonides’ position is that he overestimated how precise people are being when they use terms like “powerful”, “good”, etc. These actually end up being composite concepts comprising many related but distinct ideas.
The elegance of negative theology is that facilitates perceiving the divine as ground of being and as power sustaining the cosmos versus an object in the cosmos. Anytime we use the same word to describe a process in the cosmos as we do the divine, eg. the word “good”, then the more difficult it is to perceive divine as not only the ground of being, but also manifest in all things, as a theophany. We are so dependent on our senses and materialism and objects that we erroneously tend to define the divine in the same way…as an object. Whereas, words cannot describe what the divine is in its absolute terms. Negative theology takes our focus off of material world to perceive the reality that underlies it.
That’s all semantic nonsense, though.
God can only meaningfully be the ground of all being if you positively define what you mean by that (what is he grounding, how does he ground it, and why does he need to ground it). If you say you can’t, then you are actually saying he doesn’t ground anything. It then becomes a contradictory statement, a shobboleth to ritually repeat at yourself so you can avoid admitting the consequences of what you just said.
Your books demonstrate that Paul’s letters describe a cosmic Christ (your polemically characterized “space Jesus”) perceived by the Mind or allegorized from Hebrew scripture but never a historical one (unless manifest in individuals as Wisdom). And you deftly claim something happened AFTER Paul’s life (within a hundred years) that changed the course of Pauline Christianity from one of a cosmic Christ to a mythological one. You also call for all scholarly efforts to focus on understanding that natural development in christianity versus promoting a mythological Christ as history. We agree on this! We agree on more than we disagree on. For me, as for Paul, Christ is Wisdom facilitating man (Adam) to perceive ground of being (the divine power) in the process of producing virtuous souls on earth.
I have noted before that your take is indeed the only way Christianity can survive in the face of mythicism: to just go back to the original religion of Paul. But that’s so repulsive to 99% of all Christians they will never take that route. Which is why Christians as a whole are emotionally panic-driven to deny mythicism by every hook and crook. Every attempt to get them to liberalize and mysticize their faith (like Process Theology once did) always historically fails for a reason. And halfway cults (like liberal Episcopalianism) never grow because they just become gateways to leaving religion altogether.
Because why go on believing any myth, when you can reconstruct every useful thing without it?
No, I mean actually empty. Like, you have to be willing to admit that it’s possible that you are feeling a given way about an entity that you think exists but doesn’t. To do otherwise is to pretend toward omniscience.
What you say is possible but then you would have to ignore the fact that diverse peoples throughout human history have had the same experience with the divine suggesting a common denominator. Given that all religions are founded by mystics essentially saying the same thing (after adjusting for language, culture, and environment) then we have one divine interacting with human individuals throughout human history. Paul’s Christ equals Wisdom, moral mind, cosmic consciousness, divine Mind, manifest in all humans throughout recorded history. Therefore, Paul’s Christ = Seneca’ Wisdom = Buddha’s Wisdom = Sumerian’s “god of Wisdom”= etc. Each mystic recasts the same Wisdom into the language and culture that he was born into…suggesting a common divine experience to any human aspiring to truth, wisdom, ethics,…to liberation from ignorance and vice.
A vague confusing contradictory revelations cannot be rescued by appeal to commonalities. Because real gods perform better than that. That’s why we know there aren’t any.
You covered a lot of important points here.
I never thought of it this way, but yes that is the thing that held me in Christianity.
In college I was part of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement of the seventies. This group consisted of many of the largest churches in America at the time, driven solely by intense “soul-winning” in which we went door to door getting people to repeat a prayer and thus become one of the born-again insiders. By the time I graduated I realized I had been duped, but I had nothing to put in its place. I knew that I had some purpose in life when I was “soul-winning” but now I lost my purpose. Apathy set in. And I knew that this apathy was worse than the dogmatism I had been exposed to. So I set out to piece together a more reasonable Christianity that gave me purpose and freed me from the apathy. I convinced myself that I had found something better than both dogmatism and apathy, but in the end, it could not address life’s problems. In the end, I left the faith, and only then developed a philosophy of life that gives me a real purpose to live. I tell the story at https://mindsetfree.blog/dare-to-question/how-questioning-changed-me/ .
Indeed. That’s similar to quite a lot of reports I have encountered.
You’ll notice the viral, actually cordyceps-like nature of that trick.
It hijacked not just your general sense of meaning but your sense of duty to others, your desire to promulgate the truth, and then prevented you from developing alternative values that could be used as a backup in case you changed your mind. It made it so that you could only perceive these mutual, prosocial connections through the lens of the cult, and literally demonize the alternative ways of engaging with those connections.
Yes, that is the problem. I grew up with alternative ways being literally demonized, so it was very hard for me to consider any worldview that differed from what I had been taught. It destroyed any ability to establish a firm worldview other than the one I had been taught. And my experience is that this leads to apathy and depression when the only way one knows collapses, and there is no way to put anything meaningful in its place. All of that has changed, thanks to people like Robert Ingersoll, Farrell Till, and Paul Kurtz who went before me and helped me to see a better way.
Bravo!
Right over the target with a nuke!
I’m less certain of that. While Judaism colonized the minds of ancient Israelites by violence and threats, it’s no longer evangelistic, and most Jews don’t support the ongoing violence in their name. So there is a commonality one can point to, but it’s actually fading faster, which is why Judaism is so small. It simply isn’t doing what Christianity and Islam have to do to occupy and dominate the world and cling to power over entire societies and hobble or abolish competition. Israel is more like South Africa than Iran or the British Empire or America’s “Manifest Destiny.” For what that’s worth.
The only examples of super-intolerant zealot religion outside of Christianity/Islam that I can think of are all plausibly explained by contact with those religions – Hindutva, as you noted, seems largely to have emerged as a vigorous, nationalistic reaction against 19th-century British Christian proselytizing. Weird, given how rabidly most Hindutva types hate Islam (to the point where they often support Israel purely because they’re killing Muslims), I would have thought Islam had more to do with it. Maybe it’s just that this was the first time Indian intellectuals were getting organized on a national level. Or maybe the Islamophobia has more to do with the political conflict with Pakistan.
Only other thing I could think of is State Shinto…which is a product of the Meiji Restoration, and thus of Western Influence over Japan. One very interesting detail that backs up this idea is that it wasn’t until this time that the policy of shinbutsu bunri (神仏分離) (“seperation of kami and buddhas”) was instituted. Prior to that, Japanese Buddhism and Shinto were so thoroughly enmeshed that it could be argued that they weren’t even really different religions anymore. What followed was a deliberate and very violent campaign aimed at suppressing the (rich and influential) Buddhist sects, which in addition to confiscation of property included theological suppression, such as the banning of the traditional practice of referring to certain gods as buddhas, and at its apex, forcing Buddhist monks to become Shinto priests. Has a very iconoclastic flavor, no? Ultimately it didn’t succeed in destroying Buddhism, but did succeed in separating it from Shinto, and fixing in the minds of the Japanese that Shinto is their “native” religion and Buddhism is something different.
Indeed, those aren’t really evangelistic. Hindu Nationalists are not sending missionaries to every nation to convert it; their Christian-empire-inspired intolerance mode is locally directed and xenophobic. Likewise Shinto was a local power grab, not a mission to convert the world.
is a well known trope, so they say.
T.W. Arnold covered this is 1896 in his The Preaching of Islam.
No Muslim army went into Indonesia or Malaysia. Where it did, it was a slow laborious process. Today, it’s the world’s fastest growing religion. Some cases Jews/Christians were refunded their poll tax. Muslim friends tell me.
Note that phrase is not in my article.
And Islam is not growing faster than population anywhere. So it is no longer evangelistically successful. It is sustained by laws and gangs who punish anyone who leaves.
Examples of Indonesia are like the examples in Europe I reference for Christianity where the tactic was conversion of the kings (or equivalent rulers) who then themselves compelled conversion of subjects. It wasn’t outside armies holding the sword. But there was a sword. Implied or real.
There were also civil wars, where native Islamic pretenders slaughtered their Hindu-Buddhist predecessors and coerced population compliance. And so on.
Indonesia didn’t become Muslim because people just thought it was a better life plan or something. It was not persuasion. It was coercion, soft or hard. And over a lot of bloodied bodies.
Indeed, Islam’s weakness is masked by violence. If you look at the Secularisation Cycles data, you notice that Islamic countries follow pretty similar trajectories as Christian ones for the most part, except they have almost nobody taking the final step (admitting that they’re an atheist). The reasons for that are obvious – but someone who doesn’t believe in Allah, doesn’t go to mandatory religious services, and doesn’t think that religion is relevant to their daily life, cannot plausibly be called a Muslim. Even “Cultural Muslim” might be a stretch. So the picture is certainly worse for Islam than the statistics say, painted over by inertia, cultural pressure, and threats of violence.
Also relevant, one of the obstacles I’ve heard faces Islamic deconverts (other than the obvious) is the lack of language. Thanks to Muhammad’s efforts, most languages in the region literally do not have a word for “unbeliever” that is not poisoned with assumptions about their inconstancy, unwillingness to fulfil their obligations, and overall low character.
It’s unclear what your hypothesis is here.
Christian nationalists do all the same things. That they remain unable to totally seize power and thus let vigilante gangs suppress everyone with state impunity (as they used to for centuries) is a consequence of political history, not anything to do with Christianity as an ideology. It’s in all those respects identical to Islam.
So there is nothing peculiar about Islam that has anything to do with what you are talking about. It is, rather, a path-dependent output of the contingencies of Western imperialism and colonialism. A good example of which is Albania, where the most integrated peace between Muslims and Christians has been sustained for centuries. Another happenstance of contingent history and not some inevitable output of either ideology.
Also, “infidel” is a Western Christian word. Islam didn’t make that up. It stole it. Likewise “blasphemer,” “heretic,” “deceivers,” “dogs,” “schismatics” (i.e. traitors/strifemakers), “faithless,” “idolators,” and so on. Even “pagan” and “heathen” are insults (equivalent to our modern “bumpkin” or “hick”). Calling the same people “concealers” is entirely explicable given the way they governed, necessitating pretense to belief. The equivalent in the West was “witch” (in Latin malefica, “evildoer”), which really meant pagan, someone resisting Christian laws and hiding in the “heath” as a traditional polytheist.
And most Muslims do not speak Arabic. Most Muslims aren’t even in Arabic countries. Iranians speak Persian. Indonesians, Bahasa. Malaysia, Malay. Turks, Turkish. Kazakhstanis, Kazakh (a Turkish language). Pakistanis, mostly Punjabi (named after the province in India the language came from) and Urdu (as a lingua franca across many other languages, almost none Arabic). In Africa, a whole slew of local languages predominate over Arabic in Muslim communities.
Indeed almost two thirds of Muslims live in “predominately Muslim countries” in West-East Asia (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Indonesia especially), not the Middle East, and don’t even speak Arabic (the Quran is recited phonetically, but read and understood and commented on in the local language).
Profound. I posted this on Substack exactly as it is, with full attribution. I hope it stimulates someone to pursue critical evaluation of their own beliefs & to delve more deeply in to the wisdom of Dr. Carrier & his publications. Thank you, sir.
This observation is part of the wider one – if your god and religion is true, it should be immediately obvious (and undeniable) to/by everyone.
Their god could just have implanted these beliefs directly into our minds, directly from birth (and no Christians “free will” isn’t a good defence against that!). Or at least made them as instinctual and natural as acquiring our native tongue, or ability to walk.
The fact their god didn’t do this – and instead allowed theological/religious diversity to be the norm, before deciding to *correct* that situation, – and correct it by sending the most dubious “scripture”, – (the truth of which of course could never be allowed to be publicly debated and doubted), is very powerful evidence that these religions are man made nonsense.
Indeed. This is item 6 in Ten Ways the World Would Be Different If God Existed.
Well said. Religion is about obedience, that’s it.
Well, not “that’s it,” really, since it’s not obedience for mere obedience’s sake.
Organized religion has agendas that it needs the obedience to accomplish. And organic religion is powered by subliminal agendas of the communities that enforce it with soft power, which can be as simple as ego (e.g. parents cannot stand children talking back or questioning their authority, so they need obedience to control their kids and they need to control their kids because of their egotistical arrogance and abusive self-image) or as convoluted as sociopolitical superstitions (e.g. “gay people cause floods”) and everything in between.
There are entire sciences of studying this (the psychology of religion and the sociology of religion and the anthropology of religion all have entire textbooks about these sustaining motives and agendas; “obedience” is just a tool, not the end game).
Huh. Seems like my comments got eaten last night, somehow? Must’ve been an error somewhere. Either way, I have something new to say. Having come at this from the other side of the fence, it seems to me that probably the strongest corrosive force on the power of religion (after freethought more generally) has been multiculturalism, in terms of immigration but especially access to the Internet allowing us to see other cultures directly and even communicate with them. As is seen from cities, actually being in close contact with an outsider for significant periods of time almost always results in reduced levels of racism and xenophobia (you still get bigots, unfortunately, but significantly fewer of them). I think something similar is true in the case of religion. If you’ve spent your whole life in a small Medieval village where Catholicism is the only game in town, it’s difficult to even imagine that anyone else COULD validly believe another religion, and it’s much more likely that you’ll buy a lie from your parish priest about how you’re Obviously Right and (say) Muslims are obviously evil. But if you see law-abiding Muslims every time you go downtown, eventually it becomes difficult to really believe in your heart of hearts that they’re all out to get you, at least if you’re not extremely paranoid. More importantly, it makes the arbitrariness of your faith (the exact thing that the Outside Test points out) obvious to you – there are hardly any Christians today who don’t know that Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists exist, and likely know more about them than many scholars of past centuries would’ve had a chance to. Many of them are probably friends with some. If you accept that, it becomes harder and harder to justify the belief that all these people are bad, or evil, or doomed to Hell. You can also see the wonders of their societies and the beautiful products of their culture, which makes it harder to simply cast them as benighted savages anymore. Actually, I wonder if this is why religion so often attempts to ally with racism. Fundamentalist Religion needs incuriosity to survive – it needs people who don’t feel the need to ask why things happen or are true, or at least people who will accept poor explanations. Racism is one of the most effective ways of making a mind incurious – I don’t think I’ve ever seen a racist who was genuinely interested in learning the truth about anything. Additionally, it bypasses the Outsider Test by “virtue” of simple bigotry – Hinduism (say) doesn’t need to be taken seriously because it’s the religion of filthy disgusting brown foreigners, and by that point the racist’s amygdala is firing on all cylinders and any chance of making them introspect is gone.
Please explain. What happened?
Are you a Patron and expected your comments to publish immediately? Or unaware that everyone else’s go to queue and only clear moderation to publish when I can get to them (which sometimes can take a week or two)? Or did some technical glitch happen and crash your comments before you sent them (and if so, can you describe that so I can diagnose it)? Or something else?
That’s an apt observation. I think you’re right.
Apologies, I was mistaken. I’m aware that comments are held for moderation. What happened was that, on Wednesday, I left a number of comments, then left the page. I got one of those “page wants you to confirm you’re submitting data”, clicked off, then my pending comments seemed to disappear. They came back the next day, but before I left this comment. Turns out to have been nothing.
Also, given what we know about the writing of Joshua…it’s insane to think that literally all of this might genuinely trace back to a handful of bigots writing historical revenge fantasy books in ancient Canaan. We’re as certain as you can be of anything in history that Joshua’s conquest didn’t happen, meaning that the Book’s descriptions are instead wish-fulfilment on the part of the authors, a “how it should have gone”, kind of like an embittered White Southerner writing an alternate history story where the South wins the Civil War. The fact that these people, who were probably considered unpleasantly bigoted even by the standards of their time, got to be the ones to set the intellectual trajectory of most of the world for over a thousand years, has to be one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Just imagine if the Yahweh-plus movement had triumphed over the Yahweh-alone movement instead, and Judaism had been polytheistic, with Jezebel a celebrated heroine. (That ones goes into the “timelines I want to peek into” list along with the one where Pope Valentinius the Great is a celebrated hero for his work in ridding Christianity of the terrible heresy of Trinitarianism, whose vile, demonic adherents ate babies and polluted Christianity with pagan polytheism. Or something.)
Correct me if I’m repeating myths or pop history, but wasn’t there a possible timeline where Islam could have become more rationalistic and enlightened? While they weren’t exactly secularists, the Mu’tazilites were intellectually way ahead of what Islam is doing currently, as well as what Christianity was doing at the time. Maybe if there had been more Akbar the Greats and fewer Fundamentalists. Akbar actually encouraged free debate between different religions, and even included materialist and atheist scholars among these disputes (there are ancient school of atheism and materialism in Indian thought that go back at least as far as Buddhism does, and they seem to have still been around in Akbar’s time). I believe there’s a letter from some Portuguese missionary where he accuses Akbar of being an outright atheist (though that’s probably only true by the standards of the fanatic, who thinks anyone more intellectually honest and critical than him is an atheist), and of the “sin of the atheist”, which is “refusing to subordinate reason to faith”.
Yes. The Islamic Renaissance was c. 800–1100 AD. I don’t know about your specific timeline. But yes, it was killed by anti-intellectual religious leaders.
IMO, ours would also have been killed by our religious leaders too, but for the Reformation kicking the legs out from under Catholic power, creating a market that saw extending the Renaissance as a way to thumb a finger at Catholicism (while Eastern Orthodoxy and other Eastern sects never caught up).
So the crumbling of centralized Christian power, and Protestants being even bigger dicks than Catholics, created a window for logic and reason to escape through. Which did throw world power to England (while Italy crushed its own scientific revolution ensuring it would be the back alley of Europe literally for centuries to come), and France only got in with the counter-reformation, as Catholics finally realized they were losing and had to pick up the tools of the enemy and get friendly with scientific freedom again (and even then got pounded in the Revolution), while German Lutherans got on board soon after, seeing the Anglican advantage as well by then. You might notice Spain’s global empire was mainly based on brute force and money, not science and industry, which is why it petered out rather quickly against more science-driven competition.
One thing I think important to mention about France is that I think the French state wasn’t as fussed about people believing official church dogma as not challenging the authorities.
In the 1750s they basically turned a blind eye to scientific publications that challenged church teachings, in part because they didn’t want to lose competition to the Dutch and they wanted to encourage their own printing industry. There was also a big modernising faction within the power structure.
Spain is a very interesting case and there’s been a lot of work on the Spanish Empire in recent years. You’re right about the intellectual climate, outside of areas useful to the army and Navy, Spanish science was less advanced than French and British science.
I would say that in some ways the Spanish Empire wasn’t in too bad a shape in the 17th and 18th centuries (they managed to resist the British quite well), the Borbons in all fairness, especially Charles III managed to modernise the country with some success, albeit he didn’t restrict the inquisition enough.
The disasters really came in the 19th century, the occupation by France in the Napoleonic wars was a big factor and Criollos like Simon Bolívar had discovered nationalism and liberalism.
I think like with the British Empire the fall was quick when it came but in 1770, you could have been forgiven for thinking the Spanish Empire would last another 100 years.
That all tracks, IMO.
Typo?
Did you mean Hinduism here instead of Buddhism?
“For the three most widely practiced religions—Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism—root themselves in the idea that the “faith” must be spread to all people.”
Oh good point. It’s unclear that I meant widely practiced, not number of adherents. See the reworded sentence.
Off topic, Dr. Carrier, I noticed that you went through “pitchstone” to publish one of your works, so I might be going with them to get my own stuff published, but Loftus disclosed some depressing stats about publishing, even though he recommends pitchstone. https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2022/12/on-book-publishing-and-royalties.html
I couldn’t believe my eyes…absurdly low royalties! And yet pitchstone recently told me that for the $700 package, I keep 60% of the profits from each book. I’m about to take the $700 package plunge. Any last minute advice?
I don’t know anything about what packages you are talking about. But my contracts with Pitchstone are industry standard, and as such, better than I had with Prometheus when it still existed (and Loftus hasn’t even touched the tip of the iceberg of how awful Prometheus was; but that’s buy-me-scotch storytime), and better than almost all academic publishers will give you (mine, Sheffield-Phoenix, is uncommonly generous to authors in not skimping them like academic publishers usually do).
Nevertheless, he’s right: you cannot make money on books anymore. So if your plan is to make money, give up. Do something else.
The kinds of things academic publishers or publishers like Pitchstone or Prometheus publish are low volume titles. They survive on back catalog. So they need a lot of titles that sell for decades at low volume. So your book has to be something that is, like, required reading in a niche subject and likely to remain so for decades. That is not an easy target to hit. Most authors I encounter pitch books that just repeat what the market is already flooded with. They have zero chance.
By contrast, if you honestly think you can sell over 100,000 units then you need a literary agent (a real one, not a grifter)—and have to convince one that indeed you will sell that many. And they won’t believe you. And they are experts. So you can’t trick them. You have to genuinely have the goods here to get them on board. Then they will land you a publisher and negotiate a contract that will be top market and staged by sales, all for typically 15% of your take. Staged means you make more the more you sell. The breaks usually start somewhere near 100,000 and go up as you beat, say, half mil and million unit sales.
But that—all that—is extremely extremely extremely never likely to ever happen to you. That only goes to plutocrats, global celebrities, Stephenie Meyers, and Stephen Kings.
A minor author is lucky to sell even 10,000 units and most will never break even 1,000. That means the overhead to publish you is high for very little return. Publishers aren’t going to commit suicide. They have no interest in taking you on as an author if it doesn’t at least comp them for the time spent editing and getting your book to press, plus add profit better than some other book or author they could have spent that time on instead, because their time is finite.
So if they have room for one, and you are up against an author they think will sell 10,000 units and you only 1,000, they won’t even give you a contract, or will else require you to buy the labor (like Pickwick does). And that’s then vanity press level. And if you’re just going to vanity publish, you should just self-publish. Publishing on KDP is free. You only have to supply all the labor (formatting, paperwork, proofing, marketing; they offer you to buy that labor, but it costs thousands, and that’s real cost, not price gouging—this is the economy you are in).
You will never get into a brick and mortar store that way; but you won’t ever have anyway. Stores have finite shelving space and will not let your near zero selling book take up space that could move tens of thousands of units. In fact, physical stores can’t suffer space for any book that won’t sell at least 50,000 or even 100,000. And again, that is not likely ever going to be your book.
I’m a bit unusual in that I mastered several unique subjects with “required reading” titles on their respective niche topics and built a fan base over decades that networks my own marketing. And though I’ve sold tens of thousands of units, at no point did I ever make a living with that. While royalties make up about a sixth of my income, no one can live on that. It’s essential to my overall income (the rest of which comes from blogging, teaching, speaking, commissions, and contracts), but by itself it wouldn’t even equal half minimum wage in Georgia.
So, no. “Author” is no longer a viable career. The market is flooded. And everyone surviving at that has advantages you lack and are unlikely ever to have (like fame, wealth, or luck). The only reason to publish is so the book will exist. In other words, because you want people to read it, or have access to it when they need it. Not because it will pay your rent. It won’t even buy you groceries.
I’m surprised to hear you say “if God is not compassionate, he is unworthy of worship.” A God who wants to be worshipped and can send you to Hell is worthy of worship by any practical measure, regardless of whether He is compassionate.
The obvious sensible thing for such a God to do is send people on short intense tours of Hell if they are behind on their worshipping. Compliance would be immediate. Neither the Christian or Muslim versions of God do that reliably to the non-compliant majority, so this apparently isn’t happening.
I can understand vaguely how Christians can say a God who isn’t good isn’t worth worshipping: the doctrine says God is good, and after a few decades of indoctrination they generally believe it, and talking about believed impossible situations feels free given that the alternative is arguably blasphemous and they don’t think blasphemy is free. But I don’t understand how an atheist like you can say this. What am I missing?
Hypothesizing an evil God repairs all Biblical contractions because that God could self consistently tell different people different lies or directly give them false beliefs to write about. The only problem I can see with it is that believing in any God fails Occam’s Razor unless we have incredibly good evidence for the hypothesis, which we don’t. It is a good test case for understanding why atheism is reasonable.
Nope.
You have no coherent sense of worth or worthiness.
Has Christianity corrupted your morality so thoroughly as this?
There can be no clearer demonstration of my article’s point. Christianity has so colonized your mind that you have lost all sense of humanity and justice, and now define evil as good. Figuratively speaking, Satan won.
Thugs who use torture instead of positive incentives and reason to change behavior and psychology are tyrants unworthy of worship. A mugger is not worthy of your wallet. It may be strategically wise to give them your wallet, and maybe to try to talk yourself into hanging out with an idiot tyrant’s hippie son to not be tortured. But that is coercion, and morally unworthy.
Here we have talk of worthiness again. What do you mean by that? If the worship happens, and God wanted the worship to happen, what experiment could possibly be done to determine whether God was worthy to worship or not?
I can understand wanting or preferring things, so I can understand preferring the the idiot tyrant not be an idiot, or not be a tyrant, or not exist at all.
Even if God existed and were good, if He desired worship that seems mildly insane so I don’t see how a good God would be worthy of worship either. And if God is good and doesn’t want worship, then worshipping Him would just be stupid and impolite and I can’t see any worthiness there either. If God is not worthy of worship in any circumstances at all, it seems like a useless concept altogether. I really don’t grasp what was meant here.
A thug and a gangster is not morally worthy of any praise (much less “worship”). So why would an evil creator be worthy of it?
(If a good god existed I think it reasonable for it to expect appreciation, and perhaps some praise (though a morally competent creator – much less a morally perfect one – would never use punishment as a means of correction).
* Also a god does not need “worship”, so presumably any requirement or recommendation for us is to “worship”, would purely be for our own benefit.)
Ironically, this is one of the biggest wrenches in the theological gears that is a total own goal: the very insistence that God needs worship is to admit he is imperfect (such that he can obtain something he lacks only by coercing us into giving it to him) dooms all modern theology because they stupidly went “all in” on the insistence that God is perfect. The ones who say he is worthy of worship because he is perfect are just literally eating their own foot at that point.
And it serves as a Bayesian argument against theism.
Only under naturalism would we expect that almost every instantiation of a God theory requires worship, because only then can the creature not only satisfy the needs of the very flawed Ids of humans but also because only then can the worship be hijacked for the social and political needs of the elite.
Under theism, we’d expect people to understand what a truly selfless entity that needs nothing from others would actually behave like.
Right as I said in my first comment here , if God existed it would immediately be obvious – and “inbuilt” in us. And any “prayers”, “worship”, “rituals” and so on would just come instinctually to us, without being taught them.
And it would be universal across human history and culture.
The first words babies spoke would be verses from the Bible or Qur’an or whatever (in the original languages, without ever hearing them before).
We would look into the sky and “just know” Jesus loved us and died for us, or feel a “divine call” to travel to Mecca to prostate ourselves before a box housing a meteorite and so on.
That’s the sort of things we’d reasonably expect to see, but in reality we observe nothing coming even remotely close to that.
Tim, you are describing yourself as a sociopath: someone who has no idea why moral values exist and thus why thuggery is unworthy of praise and endorsement—and warranting of disapproval, rebellion, and resistance instead.
This is more than a little scary.
You might need to exercise some introspection here.
John… are you… okay?
Richard has noted this comes off as sociopathic, and I have to agree. It sounds like you have no idea what a theory of mind is, what people mean when they discuss ethics. You sound like fucking Donquixote Doflamingo from One Piece.
Without getting into a huge explanation of what ethics are, let’s just talk about the most basic thought process going on here. I do not like thugs. I do not like what they do to others. I do not like the consequences of living in a world where their actions are not deterred and prevented. This is what “worthy” means. My values make it impossible for me to view such a person as “worthy“. And anyone who actually lives their life in a way that they actually like themselves, and are not delusionally making special pleading cases to behave in ways that they would hate if others did, agree.
The God character you are describing is not likeable. I don’t want to hang out with him. The only reason I would ever spend time with such an asshole would be if I was working with him to improve him as a person or if I had to (e.g. he was a coworker, he was a tyrant I had to accommodate because I could not resist him).
Your second point is much more apt. Yeah, man, any sapient being who would want worship is not worthy of it. Indeed, we’d expect such a being to be beyond even the normal social affordances we give to each other because we are not perfectly selfless, perfectly moral, perfectly loving, and so we benefit from reassurance and reciprocity. Such a being would have no such needs. They could be like Superman: Helping because helping is good and makes them feel good. The only reason such an entity would accept thanks is because it’s good for people to give it, and the only reason such an entity would ever ask for thanks is because it’s not good for people for themselves to be ungrateful.
You’ve identified exactly why theism is so utterly small-minded. We can make fictional characters who are vastly better people than the God people want to sell us on worshiping.
Ad hominem is a fallacy. Everyone here would be better off not doing it. If y’all didn’t already know that, this isn’t the audience I thought I was talking to. What is wrong with you people?
I said I understood what preferences are, which goes against any talk of being a sociopath. My relationships are stable. The equivalence of “I don’t know what worth means” with sociopathy is a non-sequitur. The actual situation is I think we only need to reason about preferences, and more complex related concepts are a useless distraction because they are generally too vague to be helpful.
So far I think worth is one of these vague useless concepts. Since I don’t see that anybody tried to answer “What do you mean by [worthiness]?” and people are using ad hominem, it looks like one of those situations where people have a strong opinion about a word without having a meaning for it. This is weak evidence I was right that it is too vague to be useful.
Tim, I don’t think you know what ad hominem means.
It reminds me of how Donald Trump thinks any statement he does not like is defamation. “That’s mean and hurts me, therefore it’s defamatory.” That’s not what defamation is.
Likewise, ad hominem is a fallacy of non sequitur: the “thing you don’t like being said about you” has to be logically irrelevant to any point being addressed. Relevant defects being pointed out is not ad hominem.
No ad hominem has occurred here. And we both answered that question in some detail. That you “blanked” and negatively hallucinated away everything we said is an even more alarming problem that suggests you have serious epistemic failings you need to solve before you can say anything worth interacting with.
As Richard has pointed out, an ad hominem is not merely an insult, and we didn’t even do that. It’s certainly not an invocation of sincere worry and concern about your mental state.
An ad hominem is an argument where you say someone is wrong because of a character trait.
The problem is that the argument being had is almost never about the person (unless you are literally discussing the person’s character). Someone’s character is utterly irrelevant to whether 2+2 actually equals 4 or whether the Earth is round.
In actual reality, though, there is a valid inductive version of the argument. Inductively, if a particular argument is only ever offered by people with a negative character trait, and you can make a case for why the negative character trait actually would lead to those people perceiving the argument to be true despite error, that’s a valid induction. Just like if you notice that a particular cure is only ever offered by quack doctors. Yes, the cure being false is not a result of it being offered by quack doctors (the causation is the opposite: they offer a false cure because they are quacks and that is part of what quacks do), but if you have limited information, you can actually make a reasonable bet that the quack doctors’ drug being offered that all the other doctors are dismissing is probably quack medicine. In other words, if there was a vial hidden behind a curtain and all you had to go on was whether the doctors recommending you drink the vial were good and competent doctors or not, and the vial was only recommended by quacks and charlatans, it would be more reasonable to not take the vial than to do so.
So, in reality, most people invoking “ad hominem” as an argument are themselves actually engaging in an ad hominem, a reason to ignore what was said because the person said it said something they found mean and they are clutching their pearls. But even if we had offered an actual ad hominem, alongside a valid argument, we would be right.
And both Richard and I did. I explained what it means for something to be meritorious, to be worthy. It is literally, by definition, to have worth. And worth is not a magic concept: it is something we find in objects and phenomena. Not one bit of that has to do with your weird approach to discussing this topic.
I think the underlying point they’re trying to make here is that speaking of anything being worthy of worship is inherently bizarre. Simultaneously it seems fairly obvious that it’s used here to mean something like morally outstanding, so everyone seems to be going in with a stretched leg, at the risk of using an un-English soccer metaphor. 😉
That’s also true.
Worship as-such is not well defined.
In one sense it means obeissance. Which is just a ritual of submission, and thus never worthy; in that sense it is always by definition a vanity. Nothing and no one is ever worthy of that.
But in another sense (and its original sense) it means “to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion.” For example, the full dress honor guard we set to watch the monument to the unknown soldier is a form of worship, but not of a person, but an ideal or category of people, who earned it, and as a message to all who might join them. It can be vain (as when we do that but then pull funding for veteran welfare, making the ritual superficial “values-washing”). But it’s defensible when not (and is backed with real action instead).
That would be an example of worthiness of worship.
But even then the caution of the wise is to never exhaust one’s critical faculties on any object of reverence, such as results in overlooking any resulting evils (and thus covering up pedophile priests and veteran-disrespecting administrations, and browbeating people into allowing criminality because of reverence for the criminal or the thing being corrupted into a crime, like unjust wars, or attacking war protestors for failing to respect veterans, when they aren’t).
Right, and my point is precisely that the only possible way to justify the one definition is to have the other. The only thing that would even conceptually make some kind of worship make any sense is some kind of merit worthy of it. That’s what “worthy” means.
“But that is coercion, and morally unworthy.”
The Christians/abrahamists would argue their God is like the state collecting taxes from it’s citizens to fund all the services and infrastructure it provides.
God (they argue) has provided us with life, and a planet to live on. For that we have to “pay our dues” I.e worship their god, and do everything he demands of us unquestionably.
(And in the Christian version of the nonsense, because we was unable to “pay our dues” God sent his only son to do so on our behalf. And if we accept the sacrifice – I mean payment – we’ll be forgiven of our debt (“sins”).
That’s a new one on me (maybe because most conservative Christians are virulently anti-tax now so they’d never touch that metaphor with a ten foot pole).
But note there is of course a disconnect between the Christian elite (theologians and sectarian leaders) who would call you a heretic for suggesting the atonement works the way you just did, and rank and file Christians who make up any nonsense that feels good to them and whom their leaders can’t call heretics because then they’d lose all their jobs, influence, and money.
Anyway, the point here is none of that, but that models like your suggestion are tyrranical and thus immoral, and therefore neither commendable nor admirable. “Yes, I know the King is a sociopathic murderer who torments all of us for fun, but I have to pay him a basket of all my harvest of apples or else I’ll get tortured more often” may be pragmatic thinking but is not a description of being worthy. It’s an admission of God’s unworthiness of it all.
Like a Cthulhu cultist who actually wants to not wake up Cthulhu so he sacrifices virgins and bows to R’lyeh drenched in their blood because Cthulhu is evil; not because he is commendable.
Most modern Christians try to avoid the conclusion that God is a sociopathic asshole by reframing Hell as a natural consequence of our own choices – instead of something God inflicts upon us.
(Sort of like a deadbeat who gets made homeless for choosing not to pay his rent – because he’s a selfish asshole.
Him being homeless, and suffering on the streets is a “natural consequence” of his assholish decision to not pay his rent.
Further we got threw a lifeline – despite us being selfish, deadbeat assholes, the Landlord’s son (taking pity on us), very kindly offered to pay our rent (covering us for the rest of our lives no less).
All we have to do is accept the son’s offer, and our suffering can immediately end, and we can move straight back into a comfortable house.
This model posits us as the selfish, arrogant assholes (who are at fault), rather than God.
Indeed. Which is what makes religion so toxic and harmful.
And, among the countless flaws of this view, it, like so many God arguments, actually demands that we smuggle in existing assumptions about the human world that don’t apply.
Because the reason the deadbeat guy became homeless is because that’s a consequence of how things are constructed in physical and, in fact, social reality. It’s contingent. And, indeed, the very reason we find that kind of laziness unpleasant as a trait is because it has negative consequences.
But God designs the system and chooses the consequences.
Either that, or they follow the Brian Davies school and define the problem away by putting God into a totally unique category which exempts him from moral obligations while also allowing him to still be what-every-sane-person would regard as “a person”. IE “God is not a moral agent but somehow still has intellect, will, and goodness, etc”. Which, of course, is totally useless on a moral level, nothing more than an ideological escape hatch for the devout.
Trying to mix a Canaanite storm god with the God of Plato was always going to lead to such absurdities. Like the problem of analogy, where due to God’s Transcendence it is basically impossible to say anything about Him. So what does it mean to say that God is “good”? “Good” is a concept we understand by reference to things in this world, and by definition God is totally unlike any of those things. But a Christian *has* to say that God is good. Yet since we have no reference for it, that “goodness” might have absolutely nothing to do with our intuitions about what is good. It might turn out that God’s “goodness” is actually totally consistent with his desiring us to be tortured forever (everyone, not just sinners).
In practice, anyone who uses this strategy simply does so dishonestly, because of the obvious implications. They use the pop-culture idea of God as nice dad or caring shepherd or righteous lawgiver most of the time, and only when something philosophically problematic comes up (like the PoE) do they shift to this incoherent concept. They just equivocate between Pop Culture God and Transcendent God as the situation dictates.
Yeah. A lot of different twisted knots are tried.
It’s a straightforward equivocation fallacy. Literally, the most classic equivocation fallacy there ever is, the one Aristotle identified. If you say that a note is sharp, you do not mean the same thing as when you say a knife is sharp. So when they say that God is a separate category of thing and thus “good” means something different when it applies to God, they are admitting that God is not good and may indeed be evil. They’ve just changed the meaning of the term in the middle of the argument… or, more accurately, the sales pitch.
I call it the Christian two-step these days. The initial appeal is that there is a very easy, simple thing to do and then everything will improve massively because that is the will of an active, omnipotent entity. That appeal already makes no sense, but then when you try it, you’re actually told that, no, you need to watch for all sorts of coincidences, and keep on self-indoctrinating, and if you fail at that it’s your fault. Just like a scammer insisting that, no, really, your John Barosa memorial fund is one more payment away.
And the Abrahamists would be playing delusional word games.
The only justification to tax is that a resource is needed and that there is some kind of social contract being fulfilled.
God as proposed within the evidence we have can claim neither. An omnipotent entity needs no resources. And an absent God can demand no exchange. A deadbeat Dad gets to beg for forgiveness, not demand a single thing. Let alone a deadbeat great-great-to-the-quintillionth-order grandparent.
In the fictional Christian world, it’s human “rebellion against God”, which is what resulted us living in this “fallen world”.
And God has still given us a path back to repair everything through Jesus.
(And yes objectively we are not living in that world, and even supposing a theistic view/model, the human (Jesus) sacrifice thing is still both deeply absurd and unethical, as is the idea of a morally perfect being needing to use punishment (never mind eternal hell!), (instead of just reforming us in an afterlife, or annihilating those for whom it is impossible etc).
I know. I know what the delusion is and I know why it doesn’t actually work even if you are incredibly charitable to them.
You cannot rebel against a deadbeat Dad. They had no valid authority over you in the first place. Not only did God have no valid authority over Adam and Eve (and him choosing to keep them in a state of moral infancy was evil, not good, even according to Christians who defend free will as a good when they need that premise to defend their deadbeat God), but It especially had no authority over every generation after.
Not only does God not need “a path” to repair anything in their worldview, but in any case it’s not our duty to repair a damn thing, but his.
Well most (and probably a super majority in reality) of Christians in the western world are “cultural Christians”, these are people who can’t accept (rationally and ethically) the traditional Christian doctrines (or the interpretations thereof).
In the modern understanding it’s basically – yup humans are flawed and imperfect, Adam and Eve is a metaphor about Humanities moral awakening, and Jesus is basically humanities therapist – to be called upon to heal our moral and psychological flaws and shortcomings. (And “Hell” often gets reframed – if not outright redefined, or simply done away with entirely. And a few things about “free will” often gets thrown in the mix as well.)
The problem is that
A. The fundamentalists, a statistical minority but loud and with a lot of power and a lot of ability to make fetch happen, don’t think that way.
B. Even the cultural Christians still routinely smuggle in ideas of who is and isn’t deserving into that concept, based on immutable categories, or based on in-group and out-group politics, or superstition. It’s still not embracing a love for people and their potential.
“B. Even the cultural Christians still routinely smuggle in ideas of who is and isn’t deserving into that concept, based on immutable categories, or based on in-group and out-group politics, or superstition. It’s still not embracing a love for people and their potential.”
That goes back to the point that religions (whenever Christianity, Islam or anything else), are the products of living human cultures, – rather than of course Godmen, and prophets (as recorded in ‘scripture’.)
MAGA ‘cultural Christian’ types are likely to be pretty much identical in their values to the fundamentalists.
While perhaps ‘cultural Christians’ – who come from a far more relaxed, and tolerant social and cultural background – are likely to believe in some “hippy Jesus”, heavy with liberal, universalist and humanistic themes.
In my experience, even nice liberals do it. Richard’s surveyed that evidence before too. There’s a lot of liberal “cultural Christians” who will engage in handwaving and apologetics for things like the doctrine of hell and what it says about the Church that so readily adopted it (even if Paul and thus the early church may have been annihilationists which I am now convinced is likely), the idea of original sin, etc. That’s true whether they’re trying to soften hell or trying to make excuses for the doctrine emerging at all. Ditto trying to recapture parts of the text to not be as slavery-endorsing, homophobic, racist, etc. I’d rather they did that, but those arguments frequently (except when the fundies are outright misreading which obviously happens but isn’t universal) hinge on basically saying, “Yeah, the text is specifically racist / homophobic / misogynist, tyrannical, but it also says something vague about universal brotherhood and morality, and so that eclipses the previous stuff because the previous stuff was in their cultural context”. Which leaves the remaining elements having an incredible paucity to them, and with the “Christian” elements including just a lot of Western fiction and non-fiction writing and ideas that happened to be written by Christians but are cultural innovations.
If you subtract the misanthropy inherent to original sin and Hell/annihilation doctrines, what’s uniquely left as culturally Christian is basically… Buddhist but missing a lot of the useful exercises and psychology.
I once had a Christian tell me “Jesus couldn’t just openly condemn racism, misogyny, slavery etc because obviously every one would tell him where to go back then. But by giving them general principles of loving your neighbour as yourself, the good Samaritan, he who is without sin cast the first stone etc that would eventually lead to moral progress as people followed the true spirit of Christ.”
“If you subtract the misanthropy inherent to original sin and Hell/annihilation doctrines, what’s uniquely left as culturally Christian is basically… Buddhist but missing a lot of the useful exercises and psychology.”
I suppose “cultural Christianity” has resulted in some nice churches, art and the like.
And fictional works like Tolkien’s (far superior in every way to the Bible), but I suppose a liberal “cultural Christian” would argue is inspired by those core “Christian values” as outlined by Jesus in the bible.
Plus, Jesus didn’t really say be nice. He said don’t lose your ticket to heaven by breaking some arbitrary rule that will anger your storm god, so stay away from any possible escalation, we’ll burn them all alive soon and you won’t have to worry after that. It’s a far more nightmarish and selfish conception of morality.
See Avalos, Bad Jesus, Scofield, Savior Complex, and Schellenberg, What God Would Have Known.
Even the Good Samaritan parable is told in answer to the selfish question “What shall I do to inherit eternal life?” and not “What is a good person?” It’s really about getting into heaven (this is from Luke, and it’s an anti-kosher story, as the Priest and Levite are avoiding ritual impurity and the Samaritan is not), not being a nice person. The latter is just instrumental.
Hence that’s why Jesus commands you to hate (“if you hate not your father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and your own life also, you cannot be My disciple”) and promises to commit mass genocide with a celestial army. He’s not the good guy.
Right, modern day liberal Christians are trying to extract the wise philosopher and compassionate guru from the text – which when examined in it’s entirely (and if you ignore the supernatural, and fantastical parts), what emerges is the picture of an apocalyptic preacher – warning of the wraith of God’s impeding judgement, and only by abandoning our earthly lives and following him can we be spared (“saved”).
As the late Christopher Hitchens aptly noted, the only way this can be moral teaching, is if the world is about to end.
If however he’s just another ranter, then this is a sick man – an evil man – preaching a false, evil doctrine.
* (I suppose the modern day liberal Christians can fall back on the fact it’s all myth anyway, and the godman at the core of that myth gets made and remade to fit every culture, and every circumstance.)
Really enjoyed this overview. You’re doing a world of good, and that’s not hyperbole or exaggeration.
There is a case to be made that the big religions achieved their final form in service of unifying the conquests of hegemonic powers, and we remember them today because of that use.
Xianity for Rome, Islam for Arabs, Persians, Indians, and then Malaysians, Buddhism for Classical India, Hinduism for Northern Indians before them.. We usually assume a local substrate adapted to the needs of the conquerer. Buddhism was particularly clever as a way to cool passions that might lead to rebellion against Ashoka. It is hard to know whether Buddhism and Islam were actually commissioned de novo for the purpose. Judaism is a strange case: a minor local faith whose scripture was preserved as if in amber by its imperial successor. Mormonism is an anomaly with no hegemon to use it.
Arguably, Mammon has patiently subsumed them all.
Islam pretty clearly was created by a politically savvy reformer. Buddhism I think pretty clearly wasn’t: the timeline doesn’t line up and all the accounting we have is that Ashoka discovered it and then made a state dharma. (Which, if you think about it, for all its faults, is actually what we would want a ruler to do. He stuck to his beliefs but he created something that made sense for a diverse government rather than just imposing dogma). But, yeah, it’s still an appropriate observation to note that Buddhism ended up comporting itself quite well to a number of state systems.
The vast majority of modern forms of Christianity too are based on Nicean Christianity, which was created on Constantine´s orders, though Christianity had already become a much more authoritarian religion even before that, Constantine was arguably continuing a process that had already started for his own ends.
Mind you, I think Christianity lends itself to dogmatism much more easily than Roman religion, as if you believe in a very exclusivist religion which has one God who is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, it makes it much more necessary to determine that God’s will and differences of opinion about what that will is become more serious. Also, you have the fact that Christian sects always have defined scriptures, they may disagree about what they are, but they all take them super-seriously. It´s also a messianic religion, which means people are going to use state power to compel people to follow it, if they can.
That’s not to say there aren’t more tolerant versions of Christianity, there clearly are, just that it hasn’t lent itself to it historically for reasons that are in part to do with the religion itself. There’s a reason why you don’t really get freedom of religion in Christian majority countries until the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Even though there was often some tolerance, it was limited by things like “toleration taxes”, restrictions on where religious minorities could live, often there was a denial of political rights (Catholics in the UK only got the vote in 1829, Jews could vote but couldn’t stand as MPs until 1858).
Roman, Greek, Germanic and Egyptian Gods are not like that, they are more capricious, not omniscient, etc. And although religion was very much used in Rome as an arm of the state, Roman persecutions of believers of other Gods was the exception rather than the norm, in part, as I have written below, because you can just say other Gods are manifestations of the Roman ones (and if you have a big multicultural Empire, there are advantages of doing that, it’s arguably a lot less costly just to incorporate people than persecute them). It’s also worth noting that when persecution did occur, it was generally over perceived threats to power, i.e massacring the druids in Britain, rather than for reasons for dogma, which did occur constantly in Christian kingdoms.
In the 16th and 17th centuries, it was insane, you had all sorts of petty disputes about where the altar should be in the church, whether music should be allowed, whether dancing was immoral, whether churches should have any images, what prayer books should be used. In fact, the English civil war (now often called the “British civil war” because of Scotland) started in part because of Charles I trying to impose the Anglican prayer book in Presbyterian Scotland.
“Arguably, Mammon has patiently subsumed them all.”
I’ve heard many “Christians” (if that can be “defined”) say that what is “evil” (if that can be defined) is the “love” (again definition?) of “money” (a “marker”(?) of “credit”(?) or “backed”(?) by something of “value”(?) like gold or silver or “military dominance”(?) over a “valuable” “asset”(?) (like the petro-dollar) or something else maybe?), not “money” itself. I sometimes reply to that by saying that if you don’t “love it (“money”)” then “someone”(different “people” have different “ideas” of what “personhood” is) who does “love it” will have no problem/(or real obstacle) from “taking it”(“implies“ “possession”(exactly what is that? Who or what “determines”(?) “possession”?)) from you. I don’t “think” (somehow I know what a “thought” is but can’t “define”(what is the “definition” of “definition”?-Circular “reasoning”?) what a “thought” is), they have ever really given any “real”(what is “reality”?) “response”(“implying“(?)“coherent”(?) “thought”) to that.
https://dominationchronicles.com/episodes/e022-where/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KLODGhEyLvk&pp=0gcJCYsCo7VqN5tD&ra=m
This is one theme I have thought about a fair amount recently, what difference does the religion itself make?
I think that you can have more tolerant and less tolerant versions of just about any religion, but there are cases where I think some religions may lend themselves to tolerance more, I.e religious persecution did exist in Rome but it tended to be sporadic or politically motivated (I.e the Romans massacred the druids but didn’t ban British Gods) and you of course can just say local gods are manifestations of Román ones, I.e Sullis and Minerva. It’s much harder to do that if you’re Christian, although Christian syncretism does exist in Central América, although that’s often from the local population (I.e the concepts of the religión not translating well), rather than the church hierarchy.
In China too where you had bans on Bhuddism and Christianity, these were not core features of their belief systems, but were sporadic bannings often responding to political events, rather than core features of Confucianism.
If you look at Christian kingdoms over they ages they probably have the worst record on average, the best you got was a level of tolerance similar to the more hardline Muslim States (and yes the more hardline ones, not the Cordoban Caliphate) where you could live in peace if you paid tolerance taxes and I don’t think it’s pure coincidence for the reasons you give in the article. We tend to get tolerance during the Enlightenment for a reason.
As for Hindu nationalism, this is one where I’m wondering whether the influence isn’t so much from Christianity itself as right wing nationalism tends to do this with religion. I’m thinking of Shinto in Imperial Japan and there’s a big element of purifying the culture and eliminating “foreign” elements.