What’s up with the numbers across Mark’s two feeding narratives? Weird numbers of loaves and fishes and baskets don’t make sense as history. No one would preserve incidental details like that, much less even have counted in the first place; nor could what is described ever have happened anyway. There is therefore some reason Mark chose the numbers he did. They are communicating something to the reader—at least an insider clued in to the code (since outsiders—and that means you, dear Christian heretic of today—were supposed to miss this stuff). So what was the code? What is Mark hiding in all this that was meant to be revealed?
Comparables
I’ve remarked on the use of numerological mythography in the Gospels many times before. John’s 153 fish and Luke’s 2 swords are examples. We can’t always know for sure because it depends on common knowledge then that is lost to us today. But we often have enough clues to have a rough or ‘more probable than not’ idea about what’s going on.
The best explanation for the code behind John’s 153 fish tale (famously adapted from Luke 5 where the fish represent converts won by traveling missionaries) is that an elect from every tribe of people in the world would be saved by the Christian mission before the end of days. As I wrote in chapter 10.7 in On the Historicity of Jesus (505–06, citing studies by Robert Grant and Edmund Leach):
Jerome believed the number ‘153’ symbolized the totality of species of fish then known (more in fact were known, but possibly this was a common folk belief of the time), so the point of the story is that all would be saved—or at least, an elect would be saved from all nations (a nation being the proper analog to a species here).
There is a parallel in 2 Chronicles 2:17–18:
Solomon counted all the resident aliens who were in the land of Israel, after the census of them that David his father had taken, and there were found 153,600. 70,000 of them he assigned to bear burdens, 80,000 to quarry in the hill country, and 3,600 as overseers to make the people work.
Which means by rough estimation, if there were 1,000 from each “alien people” there would be 153 peoples of the Earth, making up all the tribes of the Gentiles. So Jerome thought. There is also a bunch of fun numerological magic to do with 153 but none of it actually explains any of this story. Why is this number a count of fish in this particular tale? What is an enlightened reader supposed to take away as the message of the story? If, as Jerome reports, popular lore at the time was that there were 153 species of fish, and this is a story about the mission to the world (and by its association with Luke, it is: these are fishers of men, so we know the intended analogy), then species = tribe and “all the species” means “all the tribes.” That’s the reason for giving that as the number. It’s not 153 fish; it’s 153 fishes. Which is code for “all” the species, a.k.a. tribes, that there are.
I work the same reasoning (from the findings of various scholars, especially Kevin Moore) on Luke’s weird tale of Jesus claiming two swords was enough for his disciples to have (when it’s not even enough for a dinner much less a rebellion). I give you an outline here in Like, Can You Rebel Against Rome with Only Two Swords? but I give more evidence in chapter six of The Obsolete Paradigm of a Historical Jesus (189–209). But unlocking the code here requires knowing that the hot new Jewish novel Joseph and Aseneth had become the talk of the town by the time Luke wrote, and his whole tale is a counter-response to its messaging. Luke even quotes it (more or less) and drops other hints making this clear. Improbable coincidences stack up otherwise, but are resolved once you realize what Luke is really doing in composing the story. Luke’s two swords of folly are the counter to the two swords avenging Dinah. And you won’t get the point (in fact you will get exactly the opposite point) if you don’t know this. So Luke is counting on insiders knowing it. Which was easier then, when this was all a popular meme, than now, when we’ve mostly lost that context.
Markan Structure
In chapter 10.4 of On the Historicity of Jesus I document from the academic literature a ton of elegant and indubitable structure in Mark, demonstrating that the reason he has a lot of duplicate scenes is not because he is carelessly mashing two different sources together, but because he is deliberately creating the duplications to convey meaning. This is most explicit in the two “mass feeding” narratives, which end with Mark having Jesus explicitly mention there were two and that only by reading both can you get their coded message. So Mark intended there to be two, and designed them to dovetail with each other in a way that conveys his message only when you combine them.
We get this in Mark 8:14-21, immediately after the second feeding:
The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat. “Be careful,” Jesus warned them. “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod.”
They discussed this with one another and said, “It is because we have no bread.”
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: “Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”
“Twelve,” they replied.
“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”
They answered, “Seven.”
He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”
Of course, Mark does not spell it out for the reader. He has just told the reader there is a code here. And the numbers across both feeding miracles have to do with it. But he is leaving it undecoded. The reader has to figure it out. They need to bring their own decoder ring.
Of course lots of attempts have been made at solving this. But in my estimation only one got it: Austin Farrer (that’s the Austin Farrer, pr. “Farrah,” the guy who also got the Synoptic Problem right). In “Loaves and Thousands” in The Journal of Theological Studies all the way back in 1953. Understanding his solution requires understanding the careful ordering structure of Mark. I give a detailed rundown on that in Historicity. But Farrer extracts something more from that: the observation that there are thirteen distinct healing narratives in Mark (if you count exorcisms, and don’t count blanket references to healings without a narrative of any), and that only one of them is explicitly said to be of a Gentile (and in such a way as to entail all the others must have been Jews, even when in predominately Gentile lands—I hadn’t noticed that before, but he’s right).
That lone exception is the Canaanite girl (the “Syro-Phoenician” woman Jesus interacts with, and her demonically possessed daughter, whom he cures). Which makes twelve healings of Jews and one hard-argued-for healing of a Gentile. Mark as auteur is making a deliberate point of this. We know Mark is simply reifying the teachings of Paul (more on that later; but you can catch up on the scholarship in Mark’s Use of Paul’s Epistles, with more in Paradigm). And here he has the foreign woman make Paul’s argument to Jesus that he should not neglect the Gentiles, overcoming his stock Jewish response that he must bring salvation only to God’s children (the Jews). She gets racist Jesus to soften that down to “bring it to the children first,” and then to the Gentiles.
Notably it is here that we learn the allegory of loaves and crumbs, meaning the gospel and hence salvation (“for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs,” but “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs”). And this happens exactly in between the two feeding miracles: the five thousand are fed in Mark 6, the Canaanite convinces Jesus to save the Gentiles in Mark 7 (Gentiles deserve at least “crumbs from the children’s table”), and then the four thousand are fed in Mark 8.
In Historicity I document that the deliberate structure of this whole sequence (what I call The Sea Narrative, Mark 4 through 8) is to build contrasts between the reception of Jesus among the Jews and among the Gentiles. This is exactly what Farrer finds for the feeding miracles—which I show in Historicity replicate miracles of Moses and Elisha, and allegorize the Eucharist. As I pointed out there, one reason “Mark duplicates the feeding narratives is so that he can have one among Jews on the western side of the lake (6.35–43) and one among Gentiles on the eastern side of the lake (8.1–9) to teach that the Jews and Gentiles should receive the same communion (8.14–17).”
What Farrer observes is that before my Sea Narrative (Mark 1–3 vs. 4–8) we have:
| Recruitment Narrative (1–3) | Sea Narrative (4–8) |
| an exorcism (1st) ➡︎ | ➡︎ an exorcism (1st = 6th) |
| a raising (2nd) ➡︎ | ➡︎ a raising (2nd = 7th) |
| a cleansing (3rd) ➡︎ | ➡︎ a cleansing (3rd = 8th) |
| • Feeding of the Five Thousand • | |
| • exorcism of the Canaanite (= 9th) • | |
| a restoration of the feet (4th) ➡︎ | ➡︎ a restoration of the ears and mouth (4th) |
| • Feeding of the Four Thousand • | |
| the restoration of a hand (5th) ➡︎ | ➡︎ a restoration of the eyes (5th) # 1 |
| —— | |
| another exorcism of a deaf mute (= 12th) # 2 | |
| another restoration of the eyes (= 13th) # 3 |
The parallel structure can only be intentional. The only asymmetry arises from inserting the Gentile’s healing, and tacking on an additional exorcism (making three, a number Mark was structurally fond of) and restoration of sight—and of ears and mouth, as this last exorcism was of a “deaf and mute” spirit. So Jesus had just ended the Four Thousand story by asking “Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear?” and immediately cures blind and deaf men. That is not a coincidence. It’s narrative design.
But that means the switch to a Gentile mission inspired by the Canaanite’s argument was preceded by curing physical ailments, but followed by curing intellectual ailments, repeated twice for emphasis: the ability to see and hear, and speak the truth. Thus “Do you still not understand?” Opening your eyes, hearing the real message, and not staying silent about it, means recognizing the validity of the Gentile mission. Mark is defending Paul—by telling a story about Jesus defending Paul. Do you still not understand?
Moreover, that gives us eight Israelites (Palestinian or Disapora) followed by four more (likewise), so exactly half as many Israelites are cured after the Gentile as before. That Gentile is also a uniquely gender reversed exorcism (the only one of a girl), illustrating the reversal of the mission, and its “least shall be first” mentality. The message is that the bulk of the mission to the Jews is done, and though some will continue, after that point a focus must be on the Gentiles. Hence the sequence of feeding narratives is on the Jewish side then the Gentile side of the lake—and in between, the encounter with the Canaanite. Paul’s mission to the Gentiles has been pivoted into the superior role.
Of Loaves, Fishes, and Baskets
Which is all neat. But the question today is as to the loaves and fishes, and baskets of crumbs. A little backstory here is that Joshua (the original Jesus: the names are identical) split the Holy Land into five portions and then seven. Mark also structures his story this way: two pairs of disciples are recruited, each followed by two healing narratives, then one disciple followed by one healing narrative, making five disciples and five healing narratives, then Jesus appoints the remaining seven to make twelve. So the theme of “five and seven make twelve” appears again. The five and seven loaves represent the same staged thinking as Joshua and thus represent stages of the new Kingdom.
Here Farrer:
Five loaves are given to five thousands, but the remainders are twelve, a creel each of future provision for twelve thousands. And of course, for there are not five holy loaves or five tribes—the twelve loaves of shewbread represent the (twelve) children of Israel, Lev. 24:8 [he means 24:5–9—ed.]—but twelve holy loaves and twelve tribes. Seven thousands have still to receive their loaves.
And yet in the second feeding:
The seven remaining loaves are duly distributed, and seven remainders duly taken up. But two paradoxical features obtrude themselves. The remainders are not measured as before in creels (great baskets, cophini) but in common baskets (spyrides). And, second, there are not after all seven thousand present to receive, but four only.
What gives? “Because in the interval the gentile race has put in its claim, and been allowed crumbs from the children’s table,” so now, according to Farrer, while before Israel would have a great basket (a cophinus) of crumbs for every tribe to sustain them after, from just an initial five loaves (akin to the first five tribes to receive portions of land under Joshua), now there is a small basket (a spyris) for the remaining seven tribes (the 5 loaves and 7 loaves will now sustain all 12), and the five thousands and four thousands fed before (making nine thousands, just as the Syrophoenician girl’s healing is the 9th of the 13 healings) leaves a remaining three thousands for the gentles in the future mission (after Jesus’ passion).
There is one mistake here, however, pointed out in comments below (and I have added this and corrected following paragraphs): the kophinos was a small basket particularly associated with Jews at the time (documented in the LSJ), and so its symbolism was not the size, but its ethnic implications; while the large “creels” were actually the spurides, making the symbolism the growth of the mission (larger baskets will feed more peoples). But the rest holds.
Farrer:
In chs. 1–3 five persons were healed, and feeding has … caught up with them in the banquet of the five thousands. How many more persons beyond the five have been healed in chs. 4–7? Four, always discounting the non-Israelite who breaks into the series. Then let four thousands be fed in the beginning of ch. 8. That will leave three thousands unfed, just as there are three persons still to be healed.
All twelve tribes are symbolically fed together only at the Last Supper—as the twelve disciples consume the symbolic body of Jesus, the final “loaf” of bread Mark refers to. Remember? “The disciples had forgotten to bring bread, except for one loaf they had with them in the boat.” The one final loaf they had with them in the boat is, of course, Jesus. They eat it at the Last Supper.
As to the missing “three” thousand:
[T]hough no feeding of three appears by itself in St. Mark’s pages, the effect of the feeding narratives is to break the twelve into 5, 4, 3, figures arranged in the simple order of counting backwards. When five and four have been given, we are inclined to supply three, not only because other hints persuade us that the sum of twelve has to be made up, but also because three is the serial number next after five and four.
This is the code. You are to understand in your own mind (not on the page) who the next portion are: the “three thousand” are the Gentiles. And the final loaf of Jesus will accomplish it. This is basically Paul’s entire theology in high symbolism and allegory.
A reverse trick in the wording of “baskets” (they grow from small to great from the five thousand to the four thousand) occurs in the wording of “fish.” When Israel is the lone recipient of salvation, the first portion of five thousand get “two fish” meaning full hefty fish, which together with the five loaves fills out seven. Some have speculated that this means the loaves here are the five books of the Pentateuch (thus representing the Torah observant Christians) and the two fish are the two tablets of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4; although the story implies 613 commandments, the text keeps saying ten are on the tablets).
In which case, when the four thousand get fed it is specifically now “little fish” (the Greek is in the diminutive this time) and not specifically two but just “a few.” The baskets grew, but the fish shrank; and while there are two before, now it’s a non specific number. Extending the logic, this implies the moral codes of the various Gentile tribes: they are lesser ethical rules of no specific number; so they have a moral law, just not the great law of Moses. One might think here of the seven Noachic laws, although there are not seven fish; Mark made it just “a few,” implying a mixed mishmash and not a specific sub-Judaic code. The point is to contrast the great Torah code with what little mishmash the Gentiles have in its place. The Greater Law has been replaced by the Greater Baskets.
But this then means the seven loaves now somehow connect to the Gentile mission. They are not (or not just) filling out the twelve tribes to match Joshua (what was an allotment of land is now an allotment of access to the coming paradise). Yes, there are seven loaves to start, completing the twelve expected. But there are only seven (not twelve) greater baskets of crumbs left over. “Do you still not understand?”
Enter David Oliver Smith
Smith has recently done some interesting work on the Epistles and Gospels. He has contributed to the evidence that Mark used the Epistles, reifying Paul’s teachings into stories from and about Jesus, and explored other theories. I don’t always agree with him. But he often gets to or near some great insights. And here is one: Smith has documented evidence that Mark knows the seven authentic letters of Paul (and no others).
That’s not as true as he thinks. There is evidence Mark knows of Colossians, and none that he knows of Philemon. However, the gist may yet hold. Mark knew 1 Clement and probably Hebrews, and though he would know Hebrews was not “by” Paul he would have recognized it as from the Pauline sect, arguing for a Gentile mission (indeed, arguing even Jews should abandon Torah, an even more extreme position than Paul took). Almost all agree the Pastorals didn’t even exist when Mark wrote; and I think the evidence is strong enough to conclude neither did Philemon (see Did Paul Write Philemon?). But most scholars think the author of Ephesians was riffing on Colossians, so Colossians could date as early as the 70s. It is thus conceivable Mark thought Colossians was the seventh authentic letter of Paul, or else he included in “the seven” Pauline letters Hebrews, as a text of Paul’s school. Though there is more evidence of Mark’s knowledge of Colossians than Hebrews, so I am inclined more toward that result. Mark definitely used the other six (Romans, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Philippians).
So it remains true, however we land, that Mark would likely have known of a collection of seven “Pauline” letters as the definitive manifesto for the Gentile mission. And that is significant because in Smith’s magnum opus, The Bible Tells Me So: A Critical Analysis of the Jesus Myth, which I think is mostly wrong but still rife with usable insights, he argues this:
Paul used leaven as a metaphor twice in the undisputed letters, at 1 Cor 5:6–8 and Gal 5:9–10. In [the one] leaven is used as a metaphor for malice and wickedness. In [the other] leaven is used as a metaphor for the corrupting theology of the Jerusalem apostles who are preaching justification through the law. [Which suggests] Mark is making a clear reference to Paul and his leaven metaphor [when he has Jesus warn, “Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod”]. The seven baskets of which Jesus reminds the disciples is a reference to Paul’s seven undisputed letters. Jesus and the disciples just left the miracle feeding where he used seven loaves as the spiritual nourishment for the world…[with] seven baskets of left overs. Mark’s Jesus is admonishing the Jerusalem apostles for failing to understand Paul’s seven letters.
We can shore that up by acknowledging that the seven Gentile mission letters Mark is referring to might not be today’s “seven undisputed” ones but the six (Philemon is legitimately disputed now) plus one more, either mistaking Colossians as authentic, or taking Hebrews as aligned with, even if not explicitly written by, Paul—or perhaps even mistaking it as by Paul. These scenarios are all compatible with Smith’s argument.
Once we grant that, we now have a reason there are seven loaves and seven final baskets. If it were twelve baskets again, then the seven would just complete the twelve after the five, and we’d just be looking at completing the mission to all Israel. But there are not twelve baskets this time. Nor, as Farrer pointed out, have we ended up feeding twelve thousands, but we’re missing three. Farrer’s analysis makes clear that Mark is definitely signaling something in his number and story symbolism about the Pauline switch from the original mission to the Hebrews to a now urgent mission to the Gentiles. The Canaanite’s gambit establishes the pivot. And what we are supposed to “understand” in the code about what’s changed between the previous feeding and the one after that gambit must relate to that.
This is especially because Jesus ties the one remaining loaf (himself) to the two feedings, where he emphasizes there is some code to understand in the numbers of loaves, baskets, and thousands (the fish are no longer important), and warns of the “leaven” of the Jewish authorities, just as Paul had done, in reference to the Torah Christians meddling with the Gentile Christians, trying to make them convert to Judaism: in respect to sinning in general he means “the old yeast,” “the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness,” but in the sectarian context that becomes Torah as “a yoke of slavery” because “every man who lets himself be circumcised is obligated to obey the whole law.” The leaven of the Pharisees and Herodians is therefore what Paul said: “you who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ” and “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value,” and so their leaven ruins the batch.
Conclusion
As with other examples, we can never be decisively certain. The original context is lost so we only have scattered and incomplete clues to work from. Even later Christian authors we have no longer believed in the original methods and message of the early Gospels, and plainly were out of the loop of any original backroom lore about how these texts were to be interpreted, as we can show they almost always get wrong what each writer meant and miss nearly every device they used to convey it. So between the first and second century, the near failure and conspicuous erosion of Christianity appears to have destroyed even their own institutional memory of what the early authors were doing or saying. So they made other stuff up instead, to suit their own corrupted and transformed belief system, indeed even against competitors, who might have preserved different parts of the original beliefs or intentions: in result, our preserved “orthodoxists” denigrated, shunned, and discarded any such data there may have been. So we get little to no help from them.
But from the data we do have (as just surveyed), we can propose the most likely answer to “Jesus’s” query as Mark contrived it:
“When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”
“Twelve,” they replied.
“And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?”
They answered, “Seven.”
He said to them, “Do you still not understand?”
Triangulate from the Joshuan allotment of five thousand, to the diminishing four thousand … to the missing three thousand, the Gentiles’ share. Then the five loaves of the Pentateuch for the Originals, transformed by Christ’s preaching, left twelve common Jewish baskets to feed the gospel to all Israel. Then, after being convinced by an ambassador’s pleading that the Gentiles deserved a share, Jesus goes for a total redo, and produces the seven loaves of Paul’s Epistles instead of the Pentateuch, leaving a humble seven great baskets to feed the gospel to the whole world. Yes, it’s crumbs to the dogs, falling from the heirs’ table. But it will feed every tribe, Jewish and Gentile—through the one loaf of Jesus, unleavened by the circumcision camp.
No other interpretation seems as likely given so many converging lines of evidence (as explored above). The irony is that this has Jesus prophetically referring to Paul and his Epistles and mission. Of course like all prophecy, Mark is inventing it after the fact, to retcon the church’s history, backdating Paul’s innovation into a “secret teaching” of Jesus during his very ministry that “the disciples” did not understand (thus explaining why they didn’t see Paul and his mission coming). But even as pure mythology, Mark’s contrivance creates a clever and thus “charismatic” way to preach that there can be no valid argument against Paul’s mission: any insistence to the contrary is the corrupting “leaven of the Pharisees,” a failure to acknowledge the Syrophoenician’s point, and the obvious logical fact that God can miraculously expand the mission however he wants, just as a Jesus could feed thousands from a few loaves—and the whole world from just one.
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Brilliant analysis! Thank you. Is there a book that gathers all these explanations for Mark’s symbolism and high allegory into one? If not, maybe you would consider writing one because the christians never will. They are too busy promoting a superman with superpowers as historical. Whereas, the world needs these secrets unlocked. How ironic that it takes an atheist to reveal the meaning of words attributed to Jesus because the christians have lost their way promoting high allegory as literal history.
BTW, here is another explanation for your consideration to file away until the right time. You know in 2 cor 11:3 where Paul warns his followers about being deceived? The church has always interpreted it in a way that characterizes the snake in the garden negatively and obedience to Yahweh as necessary. But in the context of the times when the “so-called pillars from Jerusalem” were opposing Paul’s Wisdom given to his human followers and claiming his Wisdom tricked them, he is more likely comparing himself to the serpent in the garden and saying (in my own words), why have you turned against me who led you to Wisdom, turned against me by those who serve Yahweh, I fear you have become as Eve who also claimed she was tricked by the serpent. I, Paul, never tricked you, but instead led you to Wisdom.
Moreover, the wise/royal serpent myth is likely based on the original Mesopotamian Oannes myth in which a scaly one appears seven times throughout history to impart Wisdom to humanity (ie., Adam). He is symbolized as a serpent because serpents change their skin presumably meaning that Paul saw himself as one of those appearances of Oannes but in a new skin (or body). Paul is comparing himself to the wise serpent in the garden who got blamed for tricking humans whereas he was actually leading humanity to Wisdom, and like the serpent in the garden was condemned to die by Yahweh as all life was condemned.
Anyways, more food for thought.
For this specific finding, no; it’s spread across two sources: Farrer’s article (as cited) and Smith’s book (as cited). And developed for the first time together here.
For other examples, no, it’s spread across numerous studies, as cited in the linked article on Mark’s use of Paul’s Epistles. Not all by atheists.
I have no comment on the rest.
Are you familiar with Gustav Volmar’s (1857) “Die Religion Jesu?
Per Tom Dykstra (Mark: Canonizer of Paul)
“In 1857 Gustav Volkmar published “Die Religion Jesu”, in which he argued that the GoMark was an allegorical presentation of Paul’s teaching and life.” Dykstra touches on a few examples in his “Mark: canonizer of Paul.”
For example, the Sea of Galilee in GoMark represents the Mediterranean, therefore, the allegorical Jesus’ crossing the Sea of Galilee many times represents Paul’s missionary journeys across the Mediterranean to Gentile nations.
Another example: The rejection of Paul by the apostles from Jerusalem is allegorically represented in GoMark as Jesus abandoned by the apostles prior to his death. In fact, Peter denied him three times.
It makes perfect sense. Given that it would have been a criminal offense after the Roman-Jewish War for Paul’s Gentile followers to say they followed Paul, a Jewish mystic, then it made perfect sense for Mark to canonize Paul’s life and teachings using high allegory and symbolism in order to throw the Romans off the trail of Gentile christians. Subsequently, GoMark is circulated publicly while its esoteric meaning is kept secret among Paul’s followers. So secret that its original meaning was lost to the early church fathers. Besides, the masses prefer signs and wonders (ie., superman Jesus) over an ordinary human/mystic named Paul. It is noteworthy that all the gnostic christians claimed their authority came from Paul, not Peter, not James, not John.
It makes perfect sense as a natural explanation for the development of Christianity.
All that’s possible. The examples are too weak for confidence, IMO. But it’s not ridiculous.
The interesting thing about Gustav’s analysis is that he characterizes GoMark as historical in the sense that “Animal Farm” represents historical events. The “letter kills” when interpreted literally, nevertheless, an allegorical representation of historical events. Five alarm fire bells should be ringing! Historical…? YES! But not as the professing scholars claim!
Moreover, as a theist, like myself, Gustav glorifies the invisible Wisdom (aka Hebrew “Christ”, divine Mind, cosmic consciousness, etc.) manifest in Paul in the first century leading men away from a depraved life of vice and immorality. He characterizes the GoMark as the greatest literature in the world. Maybe a bit of hyperbole but not far off the mark.
Problem is, there are like half a dozen similar arguments (“it’s Julius Caesar’s story” “it’s Titus’s story” “it’s Paul story” “it’s an astrological story” “it’s Simon Magus’s story” and so on), all contradicting each other, none with evidence to outperform minimal models that don’t require any such thinking.
So it’s GIGO—or SISO, speculation in, speculation out. You can’t get to probability that way.
Everyone is looking for the historical Jesus and it has been right there in allegory under their noses all this time. Moreover, John the Baptist characterized as an ascetic prophet in the desert baptizing people is the historical Teacher of Righteousness (TOR @ 100 BC) demonstrated in the Dead Sea Scrolls. A lot of his teachings are found in Paul’s letters. Therefore, just as there is no Gospel Jesus without the Gospel John the Baptist, so there is no historical apostle Paul without the historical TOR. It is so obvious to those without an agenda. The “two anointed ones” are Paul and the TOR represented allegorically as Jesus and John the Baptist, respectively. Given that the TOR characterizes himself in the Dead Sea Scrolls as the “new Moses” then his successor was represented by Mark as Joshua or Jesus, according to the TYPES. It is so obvious if people would just let go of their predetermined dogmas and biases. Christian history has undergone a paradigm shift but few recognize it.
It’s an interesting interpretation and I think Mark is in part a guide for missionaries and the journeys across the sea may well be reflected for that reason and there may well be hints towards Paul’s life. I think Dennis Macdonald is right that there is a lot of mimesis of the Odyssey in Mark, but it’s entirely possible that the sailing theme was chosen for both reasons.
One thing that strikes me, is that Matthew kept the denial of Peter and I think that given that Matthew was from a Torah observant sect, that would be a strange move if Mark intended that as an analogy to Paul and Peter’s disputes (unless Matthew just missed it, which would seem odd to me as Matthew seems to get exactly where Mark is coming from). I think the most likely explanation is it’s there to fulfill the prophecy that the messiah would be abandoned by his followers and I think the point about Peter is to show how even the leader of the Apostles cannot measure up to Christ and is vulnerable to human weaknesses.
That’s right. The total abandonment was already scriptural and credal (from Isaiah 53 to Philippians 2). Mark is just reifying it. But he is also throwing shade on the Disciples as fickle and “not understanding,” to create missionary material to promote Paul. How this material gets used and fixed in Matthew and then Luke shows it remained useful, IMO the same way modern preachers claim to have been degenerate atheists before they saw the light, to exaggerate the extremity of their shift and therefore the miraculous truth of what they are preaching. The failures of the Disciples are thus models for the expected failures of believers, and thus creating anchors to pick them back up (“even Peter saw the light and turned around” as was known from Paul’s letters).
It’s a good explanation.
I think actually the sea of Galilee as a metaphor for the Mediterranean is a really intriguing idea, it would link the mimesis of the Odysee with the Volkmar/Dykstra hypothesis that Mark is an allegory of the Pauline missions really well.
Per Gustav, Paul’s life and teachings about the invisible cosmic power Christ, aka, Wisdom, moral mind, love, peace, and all virtues, —Paul’s teachings became more popular (after 80 CE) after everyone realized that no vengeful Messiah was going to destroy the Romans and save nation Israel from destruction. Paul’s king of Peace started to gain traction. Presumably, Peter had his own epiphany/revelation about the true suffering Messiah manifest in Paul, the one was actually rejected by his own people…so that we the Gentiles might receive the benefit. IOW, the prophesy came true! But nobody recognized him, the alleged Messiah in Paul, until after he was gone.
I think it´s an interesting hypothesis. I’m not convinced Paul and Peter had a real reconciliation irl (although maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying there), I tend to think First Clement would have made a bigger deal of it, if they did, as an example to follow. They may well have worked out a truce that lasted their until they died. I think 1 Clement is telling people to respect them both and to stop all the quarrelling.
I think the destruction of the Temple etc could well have made Pauline Christianity more popular for the reasons you say and I think the psychological blow of having the Temple destroyed was no doubt important. I think blows like that tend to make some people more entrenched, some people think “no, this has to change”.
I guess when it comes to the Torah observant Christians, in their writings there does seem to be a bigger focus on punishment and wrath, though it’s not totally absent from the Pauline ones.
The late Philip Davies has a good chapter on the Adam and Eve story, ch 4 “Who to believe?” in his “Whose Bible is it anyway?” 2/e, 2004.
It’s a coming of age story where the adolescents have to be defiant and get kicked out of the home in order to make their own way.
It is obvious from critically reading the creation myth that the wise serpent’s intervention was a good thing for humanity (Adam) for it resulted in civilization: wearing clothes, farming, creating laws, etc., whereas, beforehand Adam was running around naked trying to find a mate among animals. Moreover, the wisdom resulted in humanity having knowledge of good and evil like the gods versus remaining as ignorant animals. Both Christian and rabbinical orthodoxy have intentionally misled the world about the meaning because they serve Yahweh, the “god of this world”.
Civilization has massive downsides.
Given the shepherd-supremacy story of Abel and Cain, I actually even wonder if the authors of the Eden myths themselves were cognizant of the sometimes-Faustian bargain of agrarian civilization.
Very very interesting.
I think a lot of this scholarship on the relationship with Mark and Paul has important consequences for Biblical studies.
I think radical skepticism about the Pauline epistles can’t seriously be maintained, i,e that Paul´s letters are all forgeries as I think it´s been demonstrated pretty successfully that Mark was using them as a source (and I think the order of letter first, narrative second is more likely than the other way round). I suppose it could be that they’re very early forgeries, but I think as you say, there’s good internal evidence in the letters that they aren’t.
If true, the hypothesis about the 7 baskets has some interesting consequences for the history of the Pauline Epistles too. It’s interesting to me that the 7 letter collection could have been established quite early and it suggests that the merging and the cutting and pasting of different letters happened quite early. I think there is evidence that suggests that Mark was using Phillippians and Corinthians as a source.
IMO, the only plausible alternatives are the 2nd century forgery hypothesis and the “dossier published very early” hypothesis. It would be very improbable that the dossier would just sit in someone’s cache for decades before being published. It would sooner end up thrown in the trash than that.
On why Paul or most likely his immediate heir edited and published the original collection (IMO of the six authentic pastiches and one letter by the heir themselves, IMO either Hebrews or Colossians are most likely) and how and why they would, and why the idea that someone went around to all the churches collecting their copies into a publication is not plausible, see my three-part series on Livesey.
Yes, I think the most likely thing is that Paul’s letters come from Paul’s own copies, and the idea of Corinthians originally being notes from letters is a plausible one too. What you say makes sense, it´s a more likely explanation.
What Benito said struck me too. How early were Paul’s letters made into “our” collection and who exactly did it, given that even our earliest gospel used only that collection? On top of that, it must have been preserved for a long, long time before Marcion used it again. Where? How? By whom?
No wonder that “2nd century christianity” theories sound plausible. It’s all so messy and the gaps in our knowledge so huge. When exactly did historicists fraction start? Marcion was one, ok, and he sparked a reaction – but a reaction of who exactly? If these proto-orthodoxists started using gospels and acts against Marcion, why so late? On what basis were they historicists earlier if nobody before Marcion gave a damn about these texts? Speculation in, speculation out… it’s so frustrating.
That’s all aptly said.
The loss of data makes too many theories possible, thus decreasing our confidence in any (whereas conspiracy theorism is the folly of instead letting that fact increase confidence in one, somehow).
Editor: There is a comment under a different article I think was meant for here, on why no one “called out” Mark for pulling the stunts he is. So I am cross linking that thread.
I’ve been waiting for a video from GE on this topic for years.
I’ve read all the books mentioned in your first article on the subject, as well as some others that have come out since.
I find the whole question of Paul’s influence on Mark’s Jesus to be seriously underrated, or simply ignored far too often by mythicists.
If the teachings of the earliest Jesus presented in the Gospels are basically derived from Paul’s teachings, then the historical Jesus becomes even more opaque and unattainable, while Mark’s historical reliability becomes even more questionable.
I hope this topic will continue to be explored by academic research and that mythicists will finally start taking it seriously.
Because Michael Goulder was a Q skeptic I decided to read his book A Tale of Two Missions thinking that it would have interesting insights about the NT. But he fawns over paul sometimes and thinks he wrote 2 thessalonians, colossians and ephesians. Mark goodacre is a much better scholar. Many of these old books haven’t aged well. Even bart ehrman acknowledges that thinking john knew at least mark and luke is common nowadays. But for some reason, older scholars really need john to be independent and luke not to have known matthew and the gospels not to have known paul. Christians forged a lot of texts and rewrote each other.
You’re last sentences hit on the right nerve here:
The reason there is so much browbeating insistence on Q and John’s independence is that giving those up entails admitting the authors of all the Gospels were deliberate liars and grifters fudging stories to suit their agendas. And that kicks the legs out from under their faith. It’s too scary. So cognitive dissonance keeps them emotionally clinging to the only rock available to them in the storm.
Dr. Carrier, I know the passage of the Syro-Phoenician Woman is eagerly (and with passion) gripped upon by people to argue that this is authentic information carried over from the a historic Jesus’ mission. ‘I must be’.’ ‘You don’t/can’t make that up. It shows a historical ‘human’ Jesus at a weak moment, doesn’t it? He corrects himself. ‘Love this passage!’
As I had this passage explained to me while being catechised in my teens, Jesus wasn’t being ‘racist’ (who could he be…), no, he was testing the woman, her faith. Of course he would help her, the point about the Children of Israel and the Gentiles as doggies (the Reverend made a great point of emphasizing that the Lord did not call them – the woman aka the Gentiles – ‘Dogs’ outright, but rather softening to the cute, little playful dogs for Ladies’ companion…) had to be made though…
Regarding Paul’s letters, the Channels Mythvision and History recently featured lengthy video’s with scholars arguing all the letters are fake. Just for the record.
The In Any Case At Least Seven (or Six now) are Real opinion keeps feeling better, personnally.i has to start somewhere…
On the “Jesus isn’t racist” stuff, that’s all made up bollocks.
The story absolutely has Jesus being a racist (literally: he is describing the master race, the Chosen People of God, and denigrating other ethnic groups as unworthy dogs), because that wasn’t considered bad. That was actually righteous. It’s straight OT. Any other interpretation is modern white washing with invented apologetics that is totally anachronistic, ignoring its historical context entirely, and projecting onto the Jesus character modern moralities that these authors did not accept.
As for the letters all being forged, I have a lot of articles on that. I suggest you start at my series on Livesey.
Apart ftom all that, you do agree that Syro-Phoenician woman episode cannot be so easily presented as ‘suthentic’ tradition on Jesus suppoded activities or life?
I’ll assume that’s a typo for authentic: yes; that’s not a plausible scene. It’s not fantastical. But it is too convenient to be credible. And is written too much in the style of chreiai, curt pithy tales with morally sharp dialogue that serves a purpose rather than reports an incident.
And there is also the parallel with the prophet Eliah fleeing from Ahab and Jezebel to Phoenicia and him meeting the widow from Sarphat and her son there in the book of Kings.
It was a typo with ‘authentic’ in the previous post, yes.
I’m assuming you have some familiarity with the Alien movie franchise, but have you seen the most recent entry, Alien: Romulus? It features numerous callbacks to earlier films in the series, where scenes or lines or dialogue are mirrored or replicated, and the filmmakers clearly intended for viewers to pick up on this, such that people who don’t or haven’t seen the previous movies can’t have a full appreciation for the film as intended.
I think this is a pretty good analogy for the Gospels, particularly the Gospel of Mark. Readers were intended to catch the numerous scriptural callbacks and other literary or cultural references to have a full appreciation for the text, and those that don’t and just give it a straight reading are missing out on what the author was actually doing and communicating.
I am a fan of them up to IV but have since burned out on the whole Alien IP.
Though what you are describing was made fun of in Buckaroo Bonzai, which was filled with tons of “easter eggs” to previous movies/comics that never existed.
But yes. Ancient authors expected informed insiders to catch and notice and appreciate these echoes and easter eggs, because they could then extract hidden meaning from them. The parallels signal the story emulated, and the changes signal the message (what the new author is saying, e.g. how his hero is better; it’s called transvaluation in mythology studies, and I give an example from Virgil’s cooption of Homer to promote Roman over Greek values in On the Historicity of Jesus, ch. 10).
I’ll have to watch Buckaroo Bonzai again, it’s been awhile!
Great nod to Banzai. We watched that a lot as a kid but I think it holds up.
Romulus is actually incredible. It’s authentically the first really great post-Aliens film in the franchise. Jonsson just gives an absolutely incredible performance.
In all likelihood, Jesus never existed at all. While awaiting the Messiah, Jews experienced various visions of Jesus and prayed to him. The first person to whom he appeared was Peter. He was not crucified literally, but symbolically—for our sins. This means we no longer need to fight against Roman rule or face crucifixion as rebels; he has already been crucified on our behalf. And since he appears to various people and heals them of their ailments, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth is imminent. This later evolved into the myth that the Kingdom would arrive within that very generation. The myth was created so that people would pray to this Jesus, to whom all authority had been given.
For your convenience (and because I mentioned Gustav Folmer’s thesis that Mark’s Jesus represents Paul) this is what Gustav writes about the seven loaves narrative (courtesy of VRIDAR providing an English translation). It correlates with what you wrote but lacking your detailed explanation. Kudos!
Except the 5000 are fed by five pieces, not seven; and the seven loaves feeding the 4000 produce seven baskets, not twelve. So maybe there is some confusion here?
Richard,
I read your article, “The Mystery of the Seven Loaves as Mythographic Composition in Mark.” Very interesting. I appreciate your including some of my theories in your analysis. I’m especially honored to be included with the likes of Austin Farrer. I’m glad you thought I could add something to the analysis.
With regard to Philemon being a forgery, I was unaware of Christine Hansen’s work thanks for making me aware of it. I confess that for the longest time I was unable to see a connection between Mark and Philemon. However, it appears to me that Mark 9:37 “Whoever will receive one such little child in my name receives me. And whoever receives me, does not receive me, but the one that sent me” may be a reference to Phlm 1:17, “… receive him as you would me.” Especially since Mark’s Jesus is talking about receiving a child, and Paul refers to the slave Onesimus as “my child” at Phlm 1:10. That’s the only connection I could make, and it is somewhat tenuous. I would be interested to know what you think of that possible reference.
I was confused by Farrer’s statement that you quoted:
The seven remaining loaves are duly distributed, and seven remainders duly taken up. But two paradoxical features obtrude themselves. The remainders are not measured as before in creels (great baskets, cophini) but in common baskets (spyrides). And, second, there are not after all seven thousand present to receive, but four only.
According to the interlinear I use, biblehub.com/greek/2894, κοφινος found at Mark 6:43 in the Feeding of the Five Thousand, means “hand basket” with a further explanation of “a wicker-basket … such as was carried by Jews for food.” On the other hand, σπυρις, biblehub.com/greek/ 4711, found at Mark 8:8 in the Feeding of the Four Thousand, means “large basket,” with a further explanation of, “a hamper, reed basket.” It is also used in Acts 9:25 for the basket Paul was lowered in to escape Damascus.
Although Paul did not use σπυρις for the basket at 2 Cor 11:33, I have wondered if Mark was making a reference to Paul’s escape by specifying large baskets for the scraps at the Feeding of the Four Thousand. In any case, it looks like Farrer got the baskets confused, but I’m not Greek-literate, hence my use of the interlinear. Let me know if I should change interlinears.
David Oliver Smith
La Quinta, CA
Parallel with Mark & Philemon: unfortunately “children” as code for Christians was well-established rhetoric. So more likely the forger of Philemon is simply using commonplaces, which they might not even realize originated with Mark—or even actually with Paul: he calls Christians children dozens of times across his letters, and even his many discourses on all baptized Christians being children of God suffices to originate Mark’s reification of it into a saying of Jesus unknown to Paul.
On baskets: check the LSJ and you’ll discover the word kophin– was by that time more typically associated with Jews. But you are right, Farrer has confused which was the (large) creel, it’s the spyri-. I hadn’t checked that (peer reviewers should have caught it, but alas). I need to edit my article to reflect that.
It would be perfect if Paul had used that word, but he instead used sargan– which is a rare word but appears to refer to a rope basket (more like a laundry bag), not a wicker one. So there is no evident parallel; but also couldn’t be, because you can’t collect crumbs in a laundry bag, so Mark couldn’t use the word even had he wanted to. Acts does use spyri– though that would be after Mark composed. One might have conjectured the author of Acts understood the significance of changing “bag” to “basket,” but alas, he cuts the whole seven loaves & baskets story, and uses only kophinoi as Mark did for the 5000 (as Luke is a unifying Gospel, I expect he meant one feeding to signal all peoples rather than a division between Jews and Gentiles).
P.S. It occurs to me that the Christians as children, and even the subject of harming them, actually comes from a lost scripture, as quoted in 1 Clement, as the words of Jesus—combining passages Mark has split into two, so as I argued in Historicity Mark is splitting a unified passage first reported in 1 Clement from some Jewish scripture he does not name and we no longer have. Could this mean 1 Clement is the seventh letter of the collection? Or is Mark pulling this from the same lost scripture 1 Clement did?
It’s a toss up. But I am inclined to think the latter, as 1 Clement does not pretend to be by Paul and makes no particular business about Gentiles, so why would it be in the published set of seven Mark is promoting? So Mark is probably using 1 Clement’s source text, in his mind the same way as he uses the Prophets and Psalms without naming them or saying so, and we just can’t tell where else he takes material from it because we don’t have it so as to know what parallels it occasions with Mark. One might dream that it comes from the lost section of the original Ascension of Isaiah (as it does match the expectation there of some apostle-recruiting speech from the celestial Jesus). But that’s too much to hope for. It may simply be one of the lost scriptures we got only fragments of from Qumran, or something wholly lost altogether (see Element 9 of Historicity ch. 4).