In my recent update on the “Jesus Myth” debate, in The Obsolete Paradigm of a Historical Jesus, I note that, now, the best reason to be sure Jesus didn’t exist is that everyone who insists he did has to strangely ignore a lot of evidence (even pathologically avoid it), or else make up fallacious arguments based on no evidence or wild distortions of it; or even sometimes outright lie. Any conclusion that was surely true should have had a real defense by now. Not that. Ten years, and not a single good argument. I made this point again just last month with the hilariously terrible case of Ken Dark on the Historicity of Jesus.
I maintain a List of Responses to Defenders of the Historicity of Jesus. You can check every single one. It’s the same story. Every time. Maybe not as hilariously bad as Dark. But generally, bad. In How to Successfully Argue Jesus Existed (or Anything Else in the World) I tried to correct the common mistakes pervading these attempts to defend the historicity of Jesus, in a broad sense (things I honestly shouldn’t have to explain to experts yet evidently do, like, “Tell the truth,” and “Be your own best critic”). And I’ve listed all the usual worn out tropes in Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus and its sequel A Few More Attempts to Rescue Jesus. And I’ve catalogued countless examples of how Things Fall Apart Only When You Check: The Main Reason the Historicity of Jesus Continues to Be Believed (which I updated and matched with scholarship and evidence in Obsolete Paradigm).
But most scholars avoid this debate altogether—often while continuing to move the chessboard in my direction anyway. I give numerous examples in Obsolete Paradigm, but maintain An Ongoing List of Updates to the Arguments and Evidence in On the Historicity of Jesus that reflects the same trend. Gosh. It used to be there were no dying and rising gods, we made that up, or no Jews would ever believe in a dying messiah, only amateurs would overlook that. Now it’s dozens of mainstream studies proving there were and they did. And so on. The rising mainstream trend is now toward the Gospels as myth, not records of oral lore. The number of bona fide experts taking doubting the historicity of Jesus seriously is now approaching fifty (see my ongoing List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously). And so on. But nevertheless, the third rail mustn’t be touched.
I’m starting to think the only reason any honest scholar says they are “confident” Jesus existed anymore is because they believe they have to. That belief might be false. But it doesn’t matter. How things seem becomes how they are. If a scholar merely believes that admitting doubt will produce endless headaches of pressuring, meddling, harassment, and labor (or damn their soul, or embarrass them before their fans, family, peers, or employers), they will be well enough motivated to simply avoid the entire question of historicity if they can, and give lip service to it if they must. While the most fanatical or narcissistic will pump their chest and browbeat to secure their reputation and social status from stereotype threat (these tend to be the liars of the bunch).
But that leaves an undiscussed circle on the Venn Diagram: historians who take doubt seriously, but still favor historicity. These scholars will admit that, yeah, it’s entirely reasonable to doubt Jesus existed, and that scholars do need to take that doubt seriously and not pretend it’s fringe. They have no problem admitting mythicism is plausible and could be correct. They’ll take the heat for saying so out loud. They just suspect that, yeah, probably there was nevertheless a guy. We can’t know anything about him. And almost everything the field says they think they know about him is dubious or false. But, still. On balance, probably there was a guy. Can’t be certain. To claim certainty in the face of the actual scarce and compromised evidence we have is what’s actually embarrassing. But, you know, on balance. After all, there are perfectly plausible models of a historical Jesus—as even I have described myself (in a fun talk in Wichita years ago, and since on the MythVision podcast).
The Last Three Arguments
I think overall there are two kinds of scholars still in that camp: those who aren’t aware of the state of the field on some fact or other, and are thus just one lit review away from doubting more; and those who are totally up on the studies and relevant background knowledge, and are instead hung up on some point of conceptual logic.
- The first camp includes, for example, people who are still psychologically hung up on the “someone would have said something” argument (P34 in my Few More Attempts), not being aware that the field has actually moved on to basically admitting they did. Likewise those who think the celestial myth model is ad hoc—when in fact it is thoroughly precedented in adjacent Osiris cult (OPH, 23–24) and even Jewish literature (OPH, 73–74) and beyond (OPH, 14–15, 41–42; OHJ, Elements 34–42; see also How Did Christianity Switch to a Historical Jesus? and Can Paul’s Human Jesus Not Be a Celestial Jesus? and Adam’s Burial in Outer Space, and so on).
- While the second camp includes, for example, people who agree (I’m here paraphrasing a colleague) that “there is no real attempt at preserving a memory of a historical man named Jesus anywhere in the New Testament” but “rather, the opposite,” indeed, “to an extreme,” but who still have conceptual problems of logic holding them back from going all-in on doubt—which are not problems of being uninformed, but of navigating some of the complex rational relations among ideas.
Of those latter hang-ups I’ve heard three so far (again paraphrasing):
- We don’t really have any strong conventional pattern for whole-cloth invented-yet-historicized figures through that period who were portrayed in such proximity (in time and geography) to their alleged existence. Yet we have many mythologized historical figures. Jesus would just be an extreme example.
- The prosecution and execution of a hero by the state seems like too much of a morally compromising stain for an origin story. The texts we have look intended to paper over and reinterpret that stain.
- The “holy family” (with Jesus and his brothers as cult leaders) fits as a power-locus in the origins of religions generally. The Sunni/Shia divide in Islam, as an analogue, came down to that conflict early in its history. Christian sources seem to evince a debate over whether the family of Jesus are the true tradents of the cult, or to be dismissed as “in the way.” Which seems to suggest a historical Jesus.
These have one colleague of mine “leaning” toward “there seems to have been a guy,” but “not with anything approaching dogmatism,” in fact not seeing this “as even all that important to the field.” In the same way that “the historical Saint Nicholas need hardly even merit mention in a full cultural study of Santa Claus in Western society.” The real Jesus is unknowable anyway. So why should we even care whether he existed? We wouldn’t need to care about Santa Claus existing. It’s not as if discovering there wasn’t even a Saint Nicholas would have any effect at all on modern Santa mythos or its wide embrace across society. Scholars of Santa Claus barely even need discuss Saint Nicholas, and if you cut the few pages they spend on it from all their studies, nothing really would change about the rest.
The Logico-Mathematical Effect
The key to understanding all three of these objections is to try and articulate what effect the cited data would have on the probabilities. They are moot if the effect is none. But the only way they can have any effect, logically, is by collapsing the prior or inverting a likelihood. Which in effect reduce to the same thing, since one way to test the effect of a point is letting it have its effect as a likelihood to update the prior. I run through examples of this process in Chapter 6 of On the Historicity of Jesus. Because every prior is technically the output of a previous run of likelihoods. Even if you start with a completely uninformed prior, that, too, is developed directly from a “lack” of any evidence, background or otherwise, weighing for or against the hypothesis (per The Principle of Indifference).
Here we have an informed prior, based on the frequency of heavily mythologized superheroes being historical (which on my upper margin updated now in Obsolete Paradigm is 1 in 4). But do any of points 1, 2, or 3 change that? On my upper margin I find the net effect of all evidence to be basically a wash (thus making little substantive change to the prior), because even when counting a bundle of evidence 8/1 more likely on historicity, the rest of the evidence is in total nearly 8/1 more likely on myth, so those cancel out. The only way these three new points can change this outcome is to establish that their required premises (major and minor) are all true and are more likely on historicity than on myth—and then estimate how much more likely. And here, since we are seeking the upper margin (the best odds on Jesus existing), we would ask, what’s the most likely it is reasonable to believe. If anything more would be unreasonable, we have to stop there, as then our resulting conclusion is also unreasonable.
So really, in all three cases, what we are asking is: how likely are those facts (if they are true) given the least ambitious historicist theory (just bare historicity being asserted); and how likely are those same facts given the least ambitious mythicist theory (the one requiring no assumptions about the state of things then that are not backed by at least some evidence, like the background evidence surveyed in Chapters 4, 5, and 7 in On the Historicity of Jesus). For more on all this, see Doing the Math: Historicity of Jesus Edition (and, for an example of quite bad “final arguments” for historicity being run down mathematically, see How to Correctly Employ Bayesian Probabilities). And for more on the logic here, see Chapters 5 and 6 of Obsolete Paradigm.
Does Proximity Matter?
In a statement like “We don’t really have any strong pattern” of examples for an invented hero “in such proximity (in time and geography) to their alleged existence,” all the heavy lifting is being done by the word “proximity.” If you remove that clause, the point becomes false: we have a very strong pattern of examples of historicized heroes, and Jesus matches it exactly (Chapter 6 of OHJ); in fact, Jesus matches more mythic patterns than historical ones (Obsolete Paradigm, 225–46). So, really, Objection 1 is simply the claim that it is improbable that this would be done so quickly—whereas the data then are more expected if this was built on top of a real guy. I already explained in Chapter 6.7 of OHJ, “Rapid Legendary Development,” why this likelihood differential does not result as expected. But I expand on the point several different ways in OPH (“Not Understanding the Alternative,” 140–43; and 15–16, 119–120, and 220–25), and all the way back to my resurrection debates, when it came up for that (when I already had to explain that, No, Mr. Christian, A.N. Sherwin-White Didn’t Say That. And Even What He Did Say Was Wrong.)
But why this is the case is not obvious, so it is easy to fall into the trap of this reasoning. “Why has this never happened before?” is an instinctive question to ask. But it’s flawed from both sides. First, we don’t know that. How soon after people were invented were they historicized? In some cases we know (it’s hundreds of years for Romulus and Moses); others, not so much (Dionysus? Hercules? Aesop? Pelops? Oedipus?). And although on balance I think Apollonius of Tyana existed, only to a marginal probability, it is not because of proximity that I think that (OPH, 220–25). So we can’t really say. But we do have precedents: not only do I cite Roswell, John Frum, and Ned Ludd (which should have been far harder to rapidly invent, given far more difficult literacy and media environments to survive in: OHJ, index), but I also cite the Risen Jesus.
As I put it in OPH (15–16):
Objective historians today must admit there was no resurrected Jesus—no animated corpse rose from the grave to hang out and have dinner with his followers. That man is not historical. Yet he became so, within a mere generation or two. And the original, mythical version of him (who was entirely imaginary, as Paul reveals in Galatians 1:11–16 and 1 Corinthians 15:3–8) was erased. But if a ‘historical’ Risen Jesus could be invented, and that version narratively erase the original (the one of mere fleeting dreams and visions), then so could a ‘historical’ Jesus prior to that be invented, and that version narratively erase the original. We cannot allow the one sequence of events to have happened (as plainly it did), while denying the other could. The question thus falls to the evidence: does the preponderance of evidence argue more for the traditional account, or this other?
In other words, we can’t argue “no one else invented a resurrected hero so quickly, therefore Jesus was resurrected” (or his resurrection was pretended by some elaborate scheme or whatever). That simply does not increase the probability of that at all. That this rapid development happened (or happened to survive in our documentation) only once has no effect on the probability of its being a myth, any more than it affects Roswell (from scattered cheap junk to whole spaceships and autopsied pilots) or John Frum (from whispering telegraph poles to a whole national hero) or Ned Ludd (from a diffuse anti-industrial zeitgeist to its suddenly having a made-up founder). This is obvious in the Risen Jesus case (the original visionary event was replaced by cuddly dinnerparty Jesus in just forty years time). Yet it should be just as obvious for the premortem Jesus as the postmortem Jesus. Both were invented on the same timeline by the same people at the same time. So obviously there was no obstacle against it. This one being documented quickly is just an accident of circumstance, one no more improbable whether Jesus existed or not.
So we cannot assign either of these outcomes different probabilities. It is no argument that Jesus “must” have survived the crucifixion and pretended he rose from the dead because “we don’t really have any strong pattern” of dinner guests being so rapidly and elaborately invented after their actual deaths. “It was too soon for an empty tomb to have been made up!” is not a plausible argument in apologetics. Yet it’s the same argument as “It was too soon for a preacher to have been made up!” The background evidence shows that it is not too soon. In fact, Roswell, Frum, Ludd, and the Risen Jesus all evince the fact that forty years is a typical pace of invention. So it is not improbable. And if it’s not improbable, we get no inverted likelihood ratio. The probability Jesus existed is logically unaffected by the “proximity” of invention—unless the proximity is days or years rather than decades (OHJ, 54–55), which is not the case here. Here, “proximate” means a whole average human lifetime later. That’s actually not very proximate. It is, rather, the start of the “time enough for it” window, as again the proof cases show (Ludd, Roswell, etc.).
The question might then be raised “should we have examples from antiquity, rather than modernity,” given that our best proofs of concept are mostly modern (Roswell, Frum, Ludd). But this is a product of happenstance and evidence-survival. The trend for all examples (all historicized myths of whatever kind, in all eras of history) is to “place” invented persons in history at the believed “origin” of whatever their myth is supposed to explain or be a part of explaining (OHJ, 249). Hence “Moses” and “Osiris” get placed when it is believed their cults began (or when their inventors wanted people to believe they began). Romulus, at the believed founding of Rome. Most Greek heroes get piled on to when it was believed the very Panhellenism they represent began: with the Trojan War. Aesop appears to have been placed in history when it was believed his fables first appeared. Homer, when it was believed the Iliad and Odyssey were written—though in fact that was the period of their final edit; the books were written across so many centuries their narrative spans the bronze and iron ages, as their heroes’ weapons and armor change according to the era a given scene was written in. Thus, “when” heroes get placed in history was always a function of what they explained, not how long ago it was.
Even Jesus was placed in different times depending on when someone thought the religion began that he was invented to found. Some Christians outside the Roman Empire placed him in the Hasmonean era a hundred years before the Roman era—and these were Torah-observant Christians who would not have heeded any writings of Paul, allowing more leeway as to when they could pretend their religion began (and we know they calculated that from scriptural math rather than historical evidence: OPH, 57–60; OHJ, 281–88). But Christians inside the Roman Empire, following the writings of Paul, saw (or, as they were under the Roman empire, believed) the religion began in the 30s, and therefore had to place Jesus there. The proximity (or lack thereof) was irrelevant: it was decided by the happenstance of already-existing beliefs about when the thing they mythically began “began,” not by any need to wait longer.
Since the timeline is therefore a product of factors other than the need to wait, and those factors were completely random (which century the thing to be explained was believed to have started, or needed to have started), we cannot expect many examples of short timelines. Picking centuries at random will give you one or two short runs but mostly long ones. Greek heroes were stacked into the 12th century B.C. because that’s when the Trojan War was believed to have happened, and all Panhellenist myths therefore had to be set there. This was a complete accident of circumstances; not a need for a long time to have passed. So that they all get stacked “there” and not “last century” is fully expected even if “they needed time” was true or false. Therefore “they needed time” is not established by any evidence (or at least cannot be established on this evidence; it is refuted by the modern examples and the Risen Jesus example).
Since we cannot expect long or short times, because the timeline is accidental, and since the timeline for Jesus was fixed by when they thought the religion began (and indeed even Paul is compatible with both chronologies) and not by how recent or not it was, it is no longer the case that we should “expect” a longer timeline for the Jesus myth. Therefore we cannot argue that it is “improbable” that the timeline would be short. We also can’t argue we should “expect” many more short timeline heroes, since all the heroes we know had their timeline fixed already by other factors, not recency or latency. So the absence of other examples is not improbable either—it’s just as likely on either theory. So we get no inverted likelihood ratio. The “proximity” has no effect on the probability of historicity or myth.
But really, we do have a “strong conventional pattern” for rapidly invented people then, because so many people were fabricated in Christian lore on the exact same timeline: Mary Magdalene, Bartimaeus, Nicodemus, Lazarus, Simon Magus, Judas, Stephen, Barabbas, Joseph of Arimathea, Elymas Barjesus. That itself already refutes the contention that it was too soon to invent people (this continues with the rapid invention of many Christian saints through the middle ages). So “we don’t really have any strong pattern” of examples for an invented hero “in such proximity (in time and geography) to their alleged existence” is actually not improbable on mythicism; ditto for even more famous events invented, not just people, from alien-star sky-magic to blotting out the sun or single-handedly going Bruce Lee on a heavily guarded temple square—and a great deal beyond.
So early invention of a myth cannot change its probability as determined by other evidence. It only could have had the myth arisen mere years later, not decades (again OHJ, 54–55). But that is not the factual situation here. Here, all precedents, ancient and modern, establish forty years to be ample time for the wholesale invention of any person or event. And circumstances required this for the Christians to exploit the Jewish War: that event essentially necessitated creating a historical Jesus to sell their apologetic mission at that point (the same reason that they had to have only gotten around to this then, and not earlier or later, even if Jesus did exist); and Jesus had to be placed only forty years before that, because that’s when the cult began that his myth was meant to explain (or so the authors of our Gospels believed—or wanted people to believe: OHJ, Chapter 8.1). So contrary to intuition, the probability of this outcome is the same on myth as on history.
I go more into the mathematical logic of all this in Jesus and the Problem of the Fraudulent Reference Class, where I explain why (although there in the face of ridiculous rather than plausible attempts at similar arguments) we mustn’t replace a prior probability already developed on a known and relevant reference class with a less known or relevant one. We must heed the data as it is, and its actual logical relation to a theory. And here, the proximity of a whole lifetime later has no logical effect in the face of the actual data we have on how origin myths get placed in history.
Does a Stain of Criminality Matter?
Second is a version of what I years ago labeled Argument P15, “The idea of a messiah who would become victorious by dying, would never occur to a Jew, unless confronted by an actual candidate (like Jesus) being killed.” Which, normally, would be a worthwhile point: absent any other data, it would be unlikely this would be invented as a myth, rather than a historical problem that had to be explained away with a myth. So again, the reasoning superficially makes sense. But we actually have evidence this case was an exception: unexpectedly, we have a ton of evidence that the creators of this religion (who were counter-cultural apocalyptic Jews) not only expected but needed a hero to be criminally convicted and humiliated and brought to the lowest of the low. When we bring this background knowledge in, it completely changes our expectancy. Now this being invented is just as probable as it being historical.
And so, again, no inversion of likelihoods results. In fact, we’re left at a wash: this is no longer evidence for or against historicity. It is equally expected either way. I think a lot of people mistake my saying this as an epicycle, that I am just “assuming” this could be the case and “therefore” we can assume the likelihoods are equal (which would indeed be fallacious: see The Cost of Making Excuses). Rather, this is a straightforward conditional probability: rather than an assumption, this exception-premise is an emipirically proven fact (see The Idea That Some Jews Were Already Expecting a Dying Messiah although I have a peer reviewed journal study coming out in a few months on this same point; I also add more data in OPH, 70–72, 320–21). Which, being a fact, raises the likelihood of a crucified savior on mythicism all the way equal to historicity.
Indeed, this is why I think the most plausible model for a historical Jesus is the same thing: everyone was trying to create an executed messiah to start the doomsday clock (all the other “Jesus Christs” Josephus documents: OHJ, Chapter 6.5). The Christians just eliminated the messy (and often violent and vexing) problem of having to produce and rely on a real one. They could just invent one killed by demons, known only by revelation, and dodge every problem the real ones were creating (Elements 5–8 and 23–29 in OHJ). This allowed near total control of the narrative; and easier avoidance of implications of the movement being rebellious or violent. Much as inventing the humiliating and debasing mythohistory of Attis castrating himself allowed the Attis cult to control how that metaphor operated to their marketing advantage. Its being humiliating and debasing clearly had no impact on preventing them inventing it (OHJ, 615–17). Same goes for a humiliated and executed messiah.
So P(convict|mythicism) is not P(convict|mythicism+assumptions), which would only move the improbability of the assumptions to the prior and thus not stop the bleeding: those assumptions or the fact to be explained, either way, would drop the final probability of mythicism, just as our intuition imagines. Rather, it’s P(convict|mythicism+peculiar facts). Since those “peculiar facts” are as near to certain as makes all odds (abundant evidence establishes that this fit the context quite well and was therefore an easy rather than hard thing to think of at the time), there is no resulting improbability, and the likelihood given those facts is as near to 1 as makes all odds. So, this intuition fails precisely for the exact place, time, and culture where Christianity arose: it arose exactly when a desire and use for this kind of hero was at its peak, and even being speculated and tried several different ways. This is contrary to any other place, time, and culture, where that might not have been the case—which is why Christianity did not arise anywhere else.
One can argue it could have arisen elsewhere, but only if it had been different than the one we have. Greece and Rome also had religious reverence for the magical power of self-sacrificing heroes (Element 43; indeed, Aesop is an example: Element 46), but had this been the primary (rather than, as it also was, secondary) basis for the Christ cult, that Christ cult would look different in many subtle particulars. For example, it would not be justifying itself by reference to the Jewish atoning suffering-hero trope (OHJ, 430–32) and easily associated scriptures, but by reference to those other Greek or Roman mythologies (e.g. OHJ, 210–12). So that Christianity was built from the start on the Jewish tropes and justifications tells us that’s where it came from, and therefore that’s where we should find (if mythicism is true) ample precedent establishing its logic. And lo, we do. In exactly the form Christianity adopted.
Inventing exactly this kind of myth was highly motivated at exactly that time (Chapters 4 and 5). So it is not unexpected, and therefore not improbable. And not being improbable, no inverted likelihood results. It’s simply, again, a wash. And here, for the reason that this oddity of Christianity is causally associated with documented oddities of Jewish counter-cultural apocalyptic messianism and suffering hero narratives. So we do not need a real precipitating event. They did not need to be forced to contrive this by anyone’s actual death. They were already primed to invent it; and indeed, an invented one could easily be expected to be more successful, lacking all the defects and baggage of a real one.
We must remember, Christianity never sold anyone a defeated criminal. In fact we have no records of such a person at all, from anyone. Paul never once has to defend Jesus or Christians against this charge (in Romans 13 he is completely unaware of this—it is not the “stumbling block” Paul has to overcome with outsiders: OHJ, 565, 572, 613–15). Which means no one was charging them with it. They always sold Christ’s death as unjust (something God tricked Satan into) and as a victory (using known Jewish magic to defeat Satan), and as a scripturally necessary step to a successful conquest of Earth from space (exactly as anticipated at Qumran). Jesus was always a victorious messiah, even militarily. It just all had to follow the clock in Daniel 9 that always started with a messiah being executed despite being innocent (a theme already riffing on Isaiah 52–53) before the true “Prince” could return with a vengeance to destroy all enemies and resurrect the dead.
Again, as I’ve often remarked, if you asked a historian of religion then, like say Varro, just a generation or two before, “What if the Jews came up with a dying-and-rising savior-mystery cult? What would you predict it would look like?” he could have predicted every key element of Christianity himself. The god, a subordinate celestial, would be an atoning suffering servant through death and resurrection, fulfilling prophecy of the coming end times, eliminating the politico-religious role of the Jewish temple, with initiation, fictive kinship, baptism and communion, all framed into Jewish models. Consulting their oracles, he would have easily identified Daniel 9 and Isaiah 52–53 as ideal foundations for this invention. And he would agree there would be no need of any real guy to play that role, any more than any other dying and rising savior needed to be real to be invented either.
In short, in its actual context, the improbability we originally intuited vanishes. And this is one of several examples of this revelation I came to after I initiated my study in 2008. By 2014 I realized all my intuitions were wrong. They all collapse upon contact with the evidence. And another case on that very point…
Does the Jesus Dynasty Matter?
Finally, the argument that “Christian sources seem to evince a debate over whether the family of Jesus are the true tradents of the cult, or to be dismissed” as “in the way” is another example of a superficially sound question: absent other data, it would be improbable for Jesus not to exist if there were good evidence his family struggled to control the cult he founded. Indeed, as I point out in Chapter 10 of Obsolete Paradigm, if Paul had ever made clear he meant a biological brother of Jesus was holding authority in the movement, that would decisively prove historicity, and I would have gotten a very different result in my original study. Of course, the problem was (and remains) that Paul never gives us any clear evidence of that—in fact, all the evidence he does give us sooner implies he had no knowledge of biological kin of Jesus being around at all. He only ever discusses cultic brethren.
So the question is: if we don’t have any usable evidence for this in Paul (nothing there is improbable on mythicism given our background data on how Paul used kinship language), then why do we even believe there was a Jesus dynasty? Is it even true that anyone had such a notion? The idea that “Christian sources seem to evince a debate” over it refers to very late sources entirely. The first time we ever hear of any brother of Jesus having any authority in the church at all is in absurdist apocrypha related by Hegesippus (which even he may have been embellishing into dynastic references, not the lost apocryphal Acts of James he was quoting: see OHJ, 326–31; OPH, 346). That’s circa 180 A.D., which is 150 years after the religion began. There is not a single reference to this in the entire New Testament itself (for real: OHJ, 371–75, 453–54).
Nor does this idea appear in any of our pre-war sources either. No such kin exist—in fact they are conspicuously missing—in 1 Clement’s discussion of church authorities to heed (or even recent martyrs, mentioning Peter and Paul but not James), as I explain in OHJ (308–15). Most peculiarly of all, in the early second century, when Ignatius lists all the historical facts Christians had to affirm as confirming Jesus was a real historical person, his having any brothers never comes up (much less named James, even less as having any notoriety or authority—not even to dismiss or denounce him). We also never hear about this from any references from Papias (OHJ, 323–26), who appears not to have heard of such a thing. When Eusebius writes about the brothers of Jesus, he never has any sources to cite at all, earlier than Hegesippus, despite having used Papias whenever he could. Even the so-called “Infancy Gospel of James” (the Protevangelion) never identifies its named author as the brother of Jesus—that was always a later assumption. And it’s unlikely Josephus ever mentioned this either. No brothers appear in the Major Testimonium; and the Minor Testimonium isn’t likely to have referred to Christians—and even if it did, we cannot establish Josephus knew whether the James he mentions there was a biological or cultic brother of Jesus (OPH, 363–70), just as with Paul. Again, all a result that surprised me.
So the evidence as a whole indicates no Jesus dynasty existed. It was invented in very late fantasy—a century and a half later. It’s not in the NT. It’s not in any first century sources, even those that should mention it. It’s not in any early to mid second century sources either, even (again) those that should mention it. An argument from silence is strong when we have (or also likely should have) documents that should mention a thing, and that expectation is dashed. And that’s where we are. No arguments about, or even awareness of, these authority-seeking “brothers” appear anywhere in any sources for 150 years, despite abundant sources in that period that should have mentioned it. The probability of there even being this dynasty for Christians to argue over is therefore near zero. Which therefore cannot be regarded as “unexpected” and thus improbable on mythicism. This is, to the contrary, more probable on mythicism (OPH, 345–47, 350–51, 373). But a fortiori (being as most generous to historicity as we can), it is no evidence either way. There is thus, again, no inverted likelihood ratio. The probability Jesus existed is simply not affected by these late dynastic legends, precisely because they are so late, and don’t exist at all in our first hundred years of sources.
Conclusion
I had already thought of all these arguments and tested them in my original study, and found them all a wash: they end up carrying no weight, because when we put in all the evidence (direct and background), none of these arguments appeal to any actual evidence that is any more probable on historicity than myth.
- The argument from “dynasties are plausible” collapses from its minor premise being false: there almost certainty was no such dynasty. So there being one only in much later legends can have no effect on the probability Jesus existed. Such late-appearing legends are just as likely on myth as history. “Brother James” is as likely conjured out of fan fiction as any real historical dispute. And there is nowhere further to go with that argument.
- The argument from “worshiping an unjustly executed criminal is implausible” collapses from its major premise being false: peculiarly, Jesus was invented by precisely a people who actually expected and had use for exactly that kind of myth. Even when selling this to Gentiles, the widespread Gentile reverence for the Ancient Oracles of the Jews ensured sticking with and even leaning into this feature, as one could sell it on the authority of those very Oracles, and its internal logic. So this feature is actually entirely expected on mythicism, not improbable.
- The argument from “too soon to have been invented” (or even “no other examples of rapid invention”) collapses on both the minor and major premises being false: we do have such examples, both modern and ancient (all the invented people and public events in the Gospels and Acts, up to and including the Risen Jesus—indeed even a month-long Undead Dinnerparty Jesus); and we don’t have any reason to expect there to be, because what decided when a hero is placed in history is in every known case never decided by how much time has passed, but other factors wholly unrelated. So when the event to be explained (the origin of the cult) is recent enough to match analogous proofs of concept, such a myth is not improbable.
And this is the reason I ended up realizing it’s more likely than not that Jesus didn’t even exist at all: even sensible-sounding, good-instinct arguments for a historical Jesus fall apart as soon as you start digging into their merits. The evidence itself, or the background evidence for antiquity or early Christianity, always unexpectedly makes these things likely on myth, not unlikely. Our intuitions are found faulty as soon as we check the evidence properly, and correctly think about its probability. Indeed, without fail, Everything Falls Apart When You Check. And that is what is improbable for a real historical person or event.





Very well written. I too based on reading your research and my studying the tropes used from the Hebrew scriptures to develop what they call the new testament can easily see he was invented.
I saw a comment on Reddit declaring that Hansen’s article “Familial Brother(s) of the Lord? On Recent Disagreements on Galatians 1.19 and 1 Corinthians 9.5” decisively debunked you, specifically citing the argument on page 8 about the phrase “brother of” only referring to biological kin in works outside of Paul.
Personally I found the argument unconvincing since it’s affirming the consequent (i.e. to prove this argument they need to show that people talking about fictive kin used other language, what people talking about biological kin used doesn’t matter), but I was interested in your take.
I could have sworn I read you rebutting it somewhere, but I can’t find it. The closest I found was in your article on errata in OPHJ where you say the discussion on p.345 already refutes it, but after re-reading that section it doesn’t address that specific argument.
Indeed, reddit trolls say anything “decisively debunked” whatever they don’t like, no matter how awful or even irrelevant it is. So their judgment is useless.
As you note I already “decisively refuted” Hansen’s paper myself: see Errata for p. 345 and p. 350 and the corresponding pages in Historicity and Paradigm.
For example, his bogus “genitive with brother” argument is refuted in Paradigm, p. 353, exactly as cited in the errata. It’s also a dumb argument. Whether a word is in the genitive is a function of syntax not semantics; there is no rule in Greek that words entirely change their meaning when placed next to the genitive. If you need the genitive, you use the genitive. That does not entail you are saying a different thing suddenly. It’s not as if when you put “dog” in a possessive position in a sentence it suddenly then means cat. It’s really amateurish to claim this.
The reason “brother” even gets juxtaposed with the genitive is that the genitive is the possessive: my/your/their/his/her brother. There is no rule in Greek that you can’t possess a fictive brother. To the contrary, fictive kinship was entirely regarded as real. The ancients took adoption way more seriously than moderns. A brother was a brother. It did not matter how.
One idea I have had is that evidence of an oral history of a historical Jesus in the epistles (legit) has been searched for in vain. But there is oral history in the epistles. It is In the likely hymns and creeds we find there. Even the one one in 1 Timothy 3:16, which I suspect the author has inherited from just such a Christian oral culture, does not reference a historical Jesus. Some one should look into this.
Richard, who do you think Isaiah 53 is about, and who is the one who died? Onias 3?
No.
The authors of Daniel forged Daniel 9 to be about Onias III.
In constructing their reinterpretation of Jeremiah to do this, they riffed on Isaiah 53 as well (e.g. Matthias Henze, “The Use of Scripture in the Book of Daniel,” A Companion to Biblical Interpretation in Early Judaism, 298.), already written centuries before then and originally about Cyrus the Great as Messiah, and Israel (the people and nation) as the Servant.
But the authors of Daniel (like most Jewish exegetes by then) were no longer reading their own prophets in their original sense. As obviously in the case of Jeremiah: they change what Jeremiah meant to suit their plans instead of Jeremiah’s intent; they do the same to Isaiah 53, thus essentially saying they want their readers to believe Isaiah 53 was really, secretly, a prophecy about Onias III. Isaiah would have rolled in his grave at that. But alas. Jewish pesher constantly changed the meaning of obsolete prophecies to refer to new or future things of their own design. And Daniel 9 is a classic case of that. The entire Christian religion was founded on this pesher method of re-reading the scriptures.
The reinterpretation stuck pretty well. In the Talmud, Isaiah 53 is indeed said to refer to a future messiah, not Cyrus and Israel in the past (except by disguise), and the Rabbis speculate about that suffering and dying messiah with literally no pushback (they don’t even have to argue against this reading of the text). We have many more examples of this having happened besides that (it’s in the pre-Christian scroll of 11Q13 for example). I covered all this in Chapter 4 of OHJ. But I have a new article having passed peer review that cites considerably more scholarship on the point now. It will be out sometime this year. I’ll blog it when it’s available.
So, this chapter of Isaiah originally spoke about the Jewish people, and then it was rewritten? And perhaps the story of Jesus was composed based on this very chapter. It describes Jesus so clearly that at one time I thought it was a real prophecy.
Not rewritten. Reinterpreted. But yes. Jesus is constructed out of a pesher that sees several scriptures as all talking about the same thing, a future messiah. And so Jesus’s entire story is built out of Zechariah 3, 6, 12, Isaiah 52–53, Daniel 9 and 12, Wisdom 2 and 5, the Psalms of Solomon, various Psalms (e.g. the sequence of Psalms 22, 23, 24 inform the three day sequence death, burial, and resurrection, a fact directly alluded to in the original Greek of Mark 16:1), and so on.
There is a separate issue that Isaiah might also be largely fake (see discussion, discussion, discussion, discussion).
But I assume you were asking not about whether the text of Isaiah 52–53 is authentic (it may have been forged a century or two after the real Isaiah lived) but about how it was intended when written and then reinterpreted over time. In the Qumran (late second temple) era (which is centuries after even that), it was standard for apocalyptic Jewish exegetes to reinterpret their scriptures as having meant different things than originally intended, often secret things that a revelator had to discover by the Holy Spirit.
This was standard in the technique of pesher (which both the Qumranians and the earliest Christians embraced) but also even in standard Rabbinical exegesis. So, for example, the Talmud takes as given, without any pushback or argument, that Isaiah 53 refers to a future messianic era and thus not (or not solely) about Cyrus and the end of Jewish exile. Likewise, Josephus says Daniel 9 originally referenced the Seleucid era but secretly also referred forward to the Roman era, and thus was fulfilled twice, in both the Maccabean rebellion and the first Jewish War with Rome.
So this context always has to be taken into account when understanding what people thought back then that the Bible really “said.”
Isaiah 52/53 although about ‘a future messianic era’, it is not a fulfilment of any messianic prophecy that jesus memed?
Sorry, I don’t understand your sentence.
Recap:
Isaiah 52/53 was originally about Cyrus ending the exile; but by the Maccabean era of the Dead Sea Scrolls it was reinterpreted to refer to a future messiah. That drove diverse sectarian attempts to figure out the date of the end times, leading to merging of Isaiah 52/53 with other passages like Daniel 9 and Wisdom 2/5 and Zechariah 3/6/12, all of which is already visible in the DSS, a system of thinking that obviously produced Christianity (not necessarily “at” Qumran; that’s just a surviving pinhole window into a wider movement Christianity came out of).
This is compatible with a historical Jesus (per my Wichita talk “You’re All Gonna Die”), whereby Jesus (like the other “Jesus Christ” figures Josephus attests: see OHJ, Ch. 4, El. 5–9) deliberately tries getting himself killed to unlock the universal atonement references in these passage, thus allowing God to begin the apocalypse (per Dan 9).
It is also compatible with an ahistorical Jesus (per my Obsolete Paradigm), whereby to solve this problem more efficiently, “visions are had” confirming everything prophesied had been perfectly completed, just somewhere out of view, “and the scriptures prove it” (1 Cor 15, Gal 1, Rom 10 and 16, Phil 2, etc.).
Thank you Dr Carrier.
I am a mite puzzled why, on the one hand, you’ve said jesus never fulfils any prophecies, yet on the other, the OT births Christianity including its jesus character.
a bit like Muhammaduns creating sects in order ensure Muhammad’s ‘prophecies’ get fulfilled.
I’ll reread your replies.
I don’t think you are using words coherently here.
Even on standard mainstream theories of a historical Jesus, 99% of the prophecies he was alleged to have filled were fabricated (most of the Gospels was invented; they are not historical records of anything that happened), and the remaining 1% he deliberately fulfilled, which is him following an instruction manual, not the prophets predicting the future. And even then that was fake.
For example, Daniel 9 prophesied that the dying-atoning Christ unlocking the apocalypse would be Onias III. That prophecy decisively failed. The world didn’t end as predicted. So later fanatics “reinterpreted” it to refer to the future, allowing someone like Jesus (and the Samaritan and the Egyptian and so on) to deliberately get himself killed in the belief that he would be the fulfillment and thus unlock the apocalypse. But that’s all fake. The prophecy already failed. Their reinvention of that prophecy was a fabrication, not any actual prophecy anyone made. Likewise with Isaiah, Zechariah, and so on. Their prophecies all failed (Zechariah) or were fake (Isaiah 52/53 was fabricated after the fact pretending to predict things that already happened, just like the first part of Daniel 9).
So, again, I think you need to define more carefully what “you” mean by “fulfilling” a “prophecy” and stick to that one meaning and not jump around switching its meaning from one sentence to another. Then you’ll be less confused.
I’m convinced Jesus didn’t exist. But what was going through the minds of those who invented such discreditable stories about him? For example, Mark calls him the son of Mary, implying he was illegitimate. And therefore not the Messiah. Matthew adds the accursed Jeconiah. Which means Jesus is again not the Messiah. He’s using Jesus’s speech when he talks about sending scribes and wise men. And then he immediately makes a mistake about Zechariah’s father, showing that he’s not only not God, but an impostor ignorant of the Scriptures. John even writes that Elijah didn’t come. And without Elijah, there’s no Messiah again. When the Messiah comes, swords will be beaten into tools. But Matthew specifically writes that Jesus brought a sword. Thus, once again, Jesus is not the Christ. The Gospels literally vilify Jesus. Why did they write like that?
If you study myths generally, pagan and Jewish, they always do this: they are full of shameful even wicked and embarrassing details. This is the norm for mythmaking.
The reasons vary case by case, down to each specific individual thing. So, why are Adam and Eve disappointing losers that enrage God with their sin and stupidity? Because that suits the purpose of the myth, to explain why people are like that. Why do the disciples flee and only the women find the tomb empty? Because “the least shall be first” and the reversal of expectation is literally “the gospel” that Mark is trying to convey (such ironies thus pervade his entire book). Why do the women flee and tell no one? Because that ending deliberately contrasts the brave pronouncing of John the Baptist at the beginning (the stories mirror each other in numerous details, as I show in OHJ), and Mark tells the reader to go back to the beginning to receive the message (v. 7). So the reader is supposed to reflect on the failure of the women compared to the boldness of John and thus know how they now should behave (who they should emulate going forward). Why are the Parables so confusing? Because the insider-outsider methodology Mark is teaching his fellow Christians (Mark 4).
And so on. Every specific story has its own specific reason for being the way it is. There is no general rule. See my analysis of the Two Swords pericope in Paradigm for an extended example of this. And for more examples, see the Criterion of Embarrassment section of Proving History, and Chapter ten of Historicity.
To your specific examples:
Or rather, calls attention to the mystery of his mother’s name (Miriam, the sister of Moses, the begetter of Miriam’s Well, the Rock that is Christ; and Mark is reifying the teachings of Paul this way). Mark doesn’t care about questions of legitimacy. And anyone who did, would be the very people he has Jesus damn in Mark 4:10-13. Mark simply does not mean his literal mother here. Mary is the mother of the Rock, which is Jesus, and the water flowing from that Rock is the gospel (OHJ, 454–56).
Note the genealogies in Matthew and Luke even explicitly say this (Jesus is conspicuously not from Joseph). So the question is, why are all Christian evangelists emphasizing that he has no “genealogical” claim to be the messiah? Odds are, because they are denouncing the very idea of being “genealogically” the messiah. This is a polemic against all other messianic pretenders claiming descent as authority. Jesus is better than that because he genealogically descends directly from God (in Matthew and Luke, by angelic magic in Mary’s womb; in Mark, by infusion of the Pneuma in Mark’s baptism adoption story, which is Mark’s nativity for Jesus: either way, God chooses the messiah, per Philippians 2; they are not a nepo baby; God directly bypasses genealogical descent).
The “mystery” being hidden here from crass outsiders (which is indeed called a mystery in Ignatius, for example) is probably the Zoroastrian seed-magic I document in my studies (see the most up-to-date case in OPH Ch. 8).
This assumes Matthew knew or thought that was a mistake. Which is the mistake. We know their bibles said different things than ours (OHJ, Element 9). So we don’t know that Matthew’s text of Chronicles didn’t in fact conflate the two Zechariahs. We also don’t know that Matthew or a later scribe didn’t make the mistake, not realizing it was a mistake. So there is no way to “read in” to this as some sort of “deliberate” mistake by Matthew. We don’t know enough to know that. The only thing we do know is that Jesus never said this. This is entirely Matthew’s invention.
John is often arguing with the Synoptics, who he doesn’t like. John also has a lot of weird ideas, has undergone multiple redactions by different editors (we don’t have its original text), and is more antisemitic than every other named author in the NT. So we can’t expect consistency from him with the previous century of texts. As John was written in part to “refute” ideas in Luke (see OHJ, Ch. 10.7), and Luke was almost certainly written in the early second century (as most mainstream experts now conclude), John was written about a hundred years after the religion began, and a whole lifetime after Mark and Matthew composed the first Gospels.
So we have to read John in this extremely deviant context. The Synoptics all strongly imply John the Baptist is Elijah, and to cover all bases even have the actual Elijah show up to Jesus on a mountain. John has deliberately deleted all this material. It may have been in the original edition of John, we don’t know. But all we can know here is that the second century redactor (or maybe composer) of John despised this Synoptic construction and deliberately “refuted” it by having John the Baptist himself denounce it (the same function his involvement was invented for in the first place: to give celebrity endorsement to the author’s ideas). Why he wanted to do that may be mysterious now. We’ve lost the motivating context for it.
But my best guess is that this stems from the same debate in the Johannine literature over whether Jesus has officially actually come yet (OPH, Ch. 7). Malachi 4:5 says Elijah arrives before the dreadful coming—in other words, John considered the Synoptics to have jumped the gun by having Elijah appear at the first coming when in fact he is supposed to signal the second coming, when Jesus descends with armies of angels and crushes the skulls of all the Jews’ enemies. So John is simply participating in correcting what he perceives to be a timeline error in the interpretation of scripture in the Synoptics.
I think you mean Luke. I cover this in academic detail in OPH, Ch. 6 (but for an incomplete précis see Can You Rebel Against Rome with Only Two Swords?). Matthew has Jesus only claim to use a sword figuratively, not literally.
Mark 4 explains the reason, per above. Of course, you have to get the context and point right. Many of your interpretations are wrong even superficially. None of this material “vilifies” Jesus; it all figuratively communicates important points about the gospel he preached (as each author saw it).
Matthew 10:34-36
English Standard Version
Not Peace, but a Sword
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
However, this doesn’t change the essence. Jesus cannot be the Messiah and therefore the Christ, because the Messiah was supposed to bring peace to the nations. And he didn’t. Nevertheless, for 2,000 years people have believed in this New Testament madness.
That’s, as I said, figurative. Jesus is not referring to literal swords there. So it is not an example of what you meant.
One can ask why the messiah would want to pit factions against each other and tear families apart, but that’s actually not only inherent in the concept of the Jewish messiah, but in the entire theology original to Christianity.
Messianic Judaism is predicated on God murdering disloyal factions and sects in the end times and only raising from the dead the “true faithful,” which every faction obviously defined differently; in Matthew, they mean only Torah observant Christians (Jews, whether converted or natural), all the rest will be damned, “and if this causes friends and families to be divided against each other” that’s precisely God’s plan, to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Mark started similar themes (as did Paul before him), but in their faction, it was anyone who did not have a covenant with God (so, certain Jews perceived as betraying or abandoning even the original covenant, and all non-Christian Gentiles, are damned), because Mark is inclusive of non-Jewish Christians (either covenant will do, so long as you are in one; everyone else gets murdered by space aliens).
There are many aspects of Christianity that are savage and barbaric and not at all wonderful or moral. Most of what is sold as “good” about Christianity today is a bunch of humanist heresies invented centuries later and not what the original religion was teaching its first few centuries. So there is actually nothing incongruous about an intentionally divisive and murderous messiah in the original movement that composed the NT. That was the actual religion then.
Mark’s reference to Isaiah 6 (‘lest they turn and be forgiven’) portrays a particularly mean-spirited God.
The original Isaiah context appears to be God’s plan to let the impure be swept away by history, leaving only the purest to re-found society – with Isaiah as a weird cog in a bizarre Heath Robinson contraption to enact God’s will in the most indirect way possible. (Perhaps his failure to achieve his aims more directly via the flood sent God back to the drawing board to come up with a more cunning plan. Simply waving his hand to make them all pure doesn’t seem to have occurred to him.)
And as you’ve suggested, it seems Mark easily adapted this conveniently pre-existing Jewish idea to the in-out model of mystery cults.
All these guys, Jews and Christians alike, seem to have a pretty dim view of God’s ability to actually enact his will. But I guess that comes from trying to reconcile the world they saw around them with the idea that there’s a god with any concern for humanity at the wheel of the whole mess.
Yep. Mark and Isaiah 6 are promoting the same model. Only Mark is mapping it onto the Christian mystery-cult apparatus of insiders saved, outsiders damned, as a motive to join and be initiated into the real meaning of things.
This is impressively thorough, as always, and each argument is convincingly argued. I am still agnostic on whether Jesus existed at some stage as an historical figure (a bit like Robert Hod might or might not have prompted the legend of Robin Hood – as I suggested in my book ‘Bible Stories: Fact, Fiction & Fantasy in Scripture) but I also accept that perhaps my agnosticism on this question is prompted in part by having grown up with all this. I do agree that every item of ‘evidence’ of his historical existence can convincingly be refuted or queried and that an entirely mythical Jesus is more than possible.
Note that on my recent update in Obsolete Paradigm there is still as much as a 1 in 4 chance Jesus did exist. And as I note here, I have even proposed what I think is the most plausible model of a historical Jesus (as another apocalyptic “Josephan Christ” agitator).
So your intuition isn’t necessarily wrong or a product of priming and enculturation. It may simply be reflecting this 1 in 4 reality. There are historical Jesus models plausible enough to have a 25% chance of still being true.
I myself have grown more skeptical after continual immersion in the evidence, such that I struggle very hard to make any sense of the six Paulines, 1 Clement, and Hebrews on the idea that Jesus was a recently influential charismatic stoned or hung in living memory. So I lean more toward the a judicantiori side of my margin and think the probability of even a plausible Jesus is more like thousands to one against. But even things thousands to one against nevertheless happen. So my greater doubt does not entail denial. Just doubt. And that can feel the same as what you describe.
I often waver between the margins of my error range, but what always pulls me back down is having shed the presuppositional ways of reading the pre-War texts that have infested the entire field even, much less the public. Re-reading those texts without those presuppositions makes it starkly more obvious, IMO, that these guys only knew of a revealed founder (a Moroni or Gabriel) not yet any actual one (a Joseph Smith or Muhammad—those appear clearly to be the Peters and Pauls of these early texts).
Ive heard it argued that the reason the Jesus Myth was invented was to account for the destruction of the temple with the reasoning ” The Savior came and was rejected and persecuted, so God destroyed the temple by letting the romans conquer Jerusalem.” – Ive never heard you argue this, making me think you don’t subscribe to this. Have you heard this idea before and what is your opinion of it
That could explain why Jesus was placed in an earthly myth. But the cult already thrived before that. So it can’t explain their imagining visions of a Jesus decades before. And that Jesus was already being rejected. So there is no a priori reason they would need to terrestrialize Jesus to market the idea of rejection causing the war. They could have sold that on a visionary Jesus, and IMO, entire groups of Christians actually did: mythicist Christians continued as a movement well into the second century, and were only virulently opposed by rabid historicists long after the first Jewish War (see Paradigm, Ch. 7).
So, IMO, the reason for historicizing Jesus was not to create any literal Jesus at all. Mark IMO had no expectation of anyone believing his story literally—it was all allegory, and outsiders who took it literally were deceived fools who didn’t understand his message (not the people who did understand it: see Mark 4). Matthew might have started seeing a double use in literalism, maybe Luke more so. But John is the first Gospel to make it explicitly his purpose (rather than a Markan deception through allegory, as Matthew and Luke might still have also been intending), such that not taking his story literally was the thing that damned you (see the end of John 20), a complete 180 from Mark.
But the War did prompt Mark to write. And that prompted Matthew to write, to fix what Mark had done. Which prompted Luke to write, to fix what Matthew had done. Which prompted John to write, to fix what Luke had done (see Establishing the Biblical Literalism of Early Christians). All spanning almost a hundred years of spats between them and their positions.
Which means what we need to explain is only Mark. That triggered the rest; as well as the eventual and gradual movement toward taking historicism literally (per the Noll thesis as discussed in Historicity) and thus turning on the original movement and destroying it in a propaganda war. That was all occasioned by sociological effects unrelated to the War.
IMO, Mark was triggered to compose and create an earthly myth in response to the war, but not primarily to chastise Jews for rejecting Jesus, but to simply make the religion a real mystery cult: as every other had their outward-facing historicizing myth (Osiris cult being the closest analogy), and now that the temple fell yet the end hadn’t come, Mark needed to do two things: to “fix” the failure of his cult to predict the end of the world and to capitalize on the end of the temple cult to gain converts (since now his competitors, the Jews, didn’t even have the thing that Christianity had been invented to replace, making this a prime opportunity to penetrate the market).
In short, this was inevitable (all cults did this; Euhemerization was the fad and the norm) so it was going to happen eventually. The War simply created an immediate need to “do it now,” because Mark needed to seize the marketing advantage the loss of the temple created, before it waned and wasn’t as effective, so that was when he needed to make his movement as competitive with other mystery cults by selling its savior through an allegorical history narrative just like they did, and push the “we already solved this problem” marketing pitch; and Mark needed to solve the opposite problem of losing members to the failed prophecy (once three and a half years followed the temple’s destruction, Daniel’s clock ran out; and the claims of “any day now” in Paul that were already causing problems for him were even more destructive at that point), so he needed a narrative to “explained that away.”
Mark accomplishes this in many different ways, not least being the fig tree pericope (the temple’s time had passed, now it’s coming to Jesus time) and the can-kick (inventing Jesus as having given a “one generation” rule and a detailed prophecy of how the “wars and rumors of wars” will only mislead and not clock the actual end time). The problem is that he did this by reifying the Epistles of Paul to sell a “we don’t really need Judaism anymore” message (a message powerfully strengthened by the loss of the temple salvation cult entirely), which pissed off the anti-Pauline observant Christians, who scrambled to “replace” Mark with an appropriately “Jewish” version (Matthew), which reinflamed internecine conflict that frustrated Luke, causing him to do it all over again so as to create a “unifying” Gospel that gets Jewish and Gentile Christians to get along. But the ways he did that pissed John off, impelling him to “fix” it with a new Gospel that corrected everything he hated about Luke-Acts—especially in respect to the newly virulent schism between the literalists and the allegorists that John needed a Gospel to “win” for his side with (and possibly this was bundled up with the new threat of Marcionism by then).
Thank you for the well-considered post. I can follow your argument of a celestial deity later euhemerized, and it seems likely to me that placing Jesus in the historical context of an early first-century prophet makes a lot of sense, not to chastise Jews, but as a theological move to explain how god could allow the destruction of the temple. Your position that such euhemerization was typical seems evidence-based, whereas my feeling that this was a theological move to maintain God’s omnipotence in the face of the destruction of his temple is supposition
It’s not either/or.
Christians foresaw that even before the war (Elements 23-29, Ch. 5, Historicity). So they invented a theology that obsoleted the temple even before the war. And prophecy did say the temple would go down. But the end was supposed to soon follow and it didn’t. So the problem post-war Christians had to patch up is why even their prediction that the world should have ended failed, and why God is letting the world proceed for the mission to finish first. And they definitely did need to tie their original antitemple creed into this new state of affairs by explaining that God let the heathen destroy the temple because “it was no longer the season” for its figs, and Christianity now replaced it.
That agrees with your take. It just fills out the nuance of how and why.
After stumbling onto OHJ (actually people debating it online before I decided to buy it) I remained in a state of doubt for 10 years. I thought “Let’s see what responses there will be to that” while checking each and every point. After ten years, I saw that even renowned scholars were relying on false assumptions derived from the Gospels (eg there are “disciples” in Paul, so there must have been a teacher) and some of them, usually competent otherwise, were irrational toward this topic (among the former Christians, it seems they treated their loss of a savior by bargaining for an honorable and admirable man). The block looks mostly psychological to me. As long as no substitute is offered to replace their wise man, they will buck at the idea he is fictional
That’s been my experience, too. It seems psychological, emotion, not rational.
I’m actually quite astonished no real defenses of historicity have appeared in the ten years since. Mostly just lies or silliness instead. Which I have now come to realize is the final proof that Jesus didn’t exist. If he did, surely there’d have been a serious demonstration of it by now.
Which is what inspired several chapters catching this point up, and the title itself, of my latest study, the “Obsolete Paradigm” of a Historical Jesus. The paradigm framing structures every chapter of that book now.
I recently came to an epiphany about the field of Biblical scholarship that when you want to know why experts believe something it’s often not because the belief has epistemological utility (i.e. they do a good job of explaining evidence), but instead because they have emotional utility (i.e. they do a good job of justifying what they want to believe).
And it’s not just mythicism. Even around Q it’s popularity seems to be more driven by the utility it provides in furthering scholars’ personal agendas rather than how it explains the evidence.
Essentially every single Biblical scholar is either a Christian or former Christian, and even the former Christians seem to hold Christianity in high esteem. A hypothesis like mythicism that’s anti-Christian (or at least seems to be, personally I don’t think it’s as devastating to Christianity as other things Biblical scholars already accept) is going to get a negative reaction.
I’ve never understood the idea people have that mythicism is somehow “anti-Christian”. If anything, I think it would be a boon to believers who recognize the problems with treating the gospels as actual historical records (e.g. they contradict one another). Just like there are plenty of church movements that try to organize their churches like they think the earliest churches were like, I’m sure there are plenty of Christians who, when presented with the mythicist thesis as what those same earliest Christians actually believed, would jump to believing the same thing.
The problem is that Christianity, like all religions, is not based on truth or evidence but dogma. So while a rational person would change their theory with a change of evidence (and thus rational Christians would just shift their religion back to the original belief that this was a historical but cosmic event exactly like the rebellion of Satan and thus no longer take the Gospels literally but as allegorical pedagogy), religions “shoot the messenger” to preserve the popular dogma instead.
Christians are by definition not rational. That’s why they are Christians.
So anything that challenges their dogma is “anti-Christian” by definition. Even when it is Christian. Hence the Pope is the Antichrist and James Talarico is possessed by demons. Every sect declares some (and sometimes all) other sects enemies of Christ, as “anti-Christian,” and not just atheist debunking or guided evolution or democratic socialism and the like.
Some people have a low tolerance for chaos, confusion or not knowing so they cling to whatever certainties (usually false) they can. I don’t see mythicism nor myself as anti-Christian. I actually find the original belief (“By believing in the archangel Jesus we can become spiritual beings too and access heaven rather than end up as shadows in Hades/Sheol”) more enticing and elevating as a mythology than the later Christian belief. I agree with Lataster that debating mythicism is a debate for atheists. My opinion is Jesus was invented (as a savior that came but was totally unnoticed) to explain why the date set in Daniel and reinterpreted a few times had gone by. Whatever addition to scripture will “validate” prophecies gets easily endorsed. Just like Darius the Mede was invented to “validate” the prophecy that Medes will vanquish Babylon.
Richard, this is one of your most brilliant pieces of writing. It genuinely set me straight. I loved your insights—and your wicked sense of humor—about the state of Historical Jesus studies. Especially your point that scholars fully versed in the evidence often get stuck on a single point of conceptual logic. I hope your clarity never gets buried under superfluous arguments.
I think the most ridiculous argument I´ve seen against you is “This exact set of beliefs were not known in Judaism, therefore the Carrier/Doherty hypothesis is false”. I´ve heard Kipp Davis more or less say that on his videos, but he´s not the only one.
The thing is, that by that logic you would never get any religious innovation ever. Most of the same things would also need to be true for the Historicity model, i.e at least some Jews would have to be willing to accept a dying messiah, the dying and rising God trope and the existence of a pre-incarnate Jesus, something similar to Philo´s Angel.
It´s also true that you´re more likely to get religious innovation in minority sects, where the authorities can´t stamp things out so easily. The kind of innovations you get too in minority sects are going to be wilder too than the ones you get in more mainstream sects. You can see this in what the Cathars believed in the 13th century, they were more radical than Luther and Calvin
That’s actually an old Christian apologetic tactic. Davis is an ex-apologist. Most of his methods were inherited from that side of the aisle and he has not realized they’re fraudulent. He thinks they are valid ways to argue. He has failed to deconstruct his lost faith. He remains its victim.
I dealt with the exact same bullshit decades ago when I was the go-to guy on resurrection apologetics: “This exact precise identical tale of resurrection did not exist then, therefore no one would have believed a resurrection cult like Christianity unless they had convincing evidence Jesus was raised” (in fact belief in resurrection was a commonplace, and varying minutiae about details make no difference to that, any more outside Christianity than within it); “This exact precise identical form of baptism did not exist anywhere, therefore it is a unique invention of Christianity and Jesus must really have taught it to his followers”; “This exact precise identical form of the Golden Rule did not exist before, therefore Jesus invented the Golden Rule, therefore Christianity is the greatest religion in history”; “Jesus is not exactly precisely literally seated on a throne, therefore he can never have been ‘driven from the throne’, therefore his myth has no connection to the tragic hero-king mythotype” (here failing even to comprehend something so basic as a type, metaphor, genre, or analogy); and so on.
It’s the same fallacy over and over again.
I see a reference in a YT comment to a recent article by Gregor, Blais and Hansen “The Prior Probability of Jesus Mythicism Re-evaluated in Light of the Gospels’ Dramatic Date” for which your point 1 seems quite relevant. I guess you will be writing a critique of or response to that article, as it seems to directly target your work.
I already reference it in OPH, and point out how my discussion there already refutes it. But yes. I am waiting for peer review on some replies in journals. But my discussion here expands on that to make clear why it’s wrong.
That isn’t the only thing wrong with it; their paper also depends on the results of a previous paper, the one I explicitly refute in detail in OPH, so it is invalidated automatically by the first paper’s conclusion being eliminated. But that second paper also suffers from reference class error, as explained here.
“‘We don’t really have any strong pattern’ of examples for an invented hero “in such proximity (in time and geography) to their alleged existence…”
I can name one: Esther. She is the hidden dying and rising mythical goddess of the Old Testament, her story was written 40-70 years (I believe is the range in scholarly literature. But, as Lloyd Llewelyn Jones (scholar of a book on Esther) said, “Esther is Ishtar.” To match Ishtar’s death for three days and resurrection, Esther (ch.4) fasts for three days to stave off the threat of death and is later adorned in white, as one resurrected (resurrection being described as adorned in white apparel).
Esther’s historicity is a bit complicated but I think it is safe to say she did not exist, not withstanding the perhaps-historical queen Amestris who was not Jewish.
We could also add that Josephus’ crucified saved friend and Jesus Ben Ananias are thought by scholars to be fictive.
Lazarus became historical, as you pointed out, in the time from Luke to John.
The more practice I get, the more I realize you can cut through these historical Jesus arguments like butter.
Oh, yes! I forgot Lazarus. Added to the text.
The rest are not clear cases. So, not “strong” I would say.
Just like Apollonius of Tyana. I suspect is a case. But the evidence suggests on balance maybe (but only maybe) not.
We don’t have enough data to confidently say Jesus ben Ananias was made up (I’d have to see a proof of that rather than mere suspicions). One might be in a better position for the Witnesses he cites for Gamala and Masada, a case has been made (beyond just speculation), but it’s still too unsecure to be confident (especially as the witnesses may be real but Josephus is making up stories they told; we can’t rule that out either).
And we don’t have enough data to actually date the writing of Esther. We can’t even establish when the book is set (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahasuerus; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Esther). Much less written (proposed dates range across 4th to 2nd century BC.
But these examples do play to my point that we don’t know how many examples there are, so the premise is unsound anyway. We can’t say Hercules wasn’t historized a mere generation after the first prehistoric Peloponnesian conflict, or Achilles or Odysseus a mere generation after the actual Trojan conflict. And as you’d add, ditto Esther and Ben Ananias.
Hey Richard,
Fascinated by the idea that yet another scholarly invention is being revealed as such, along with Q, oral tradition, etc. Reading chapter 7, section 3 on Ignatius, question for you.
Which of these versions of mythicism do you think Ignatius was defending against:
Trying to understand if Ignatius was arguing over whether Jesus’ ministry, passion, and resurrection happened or where they happened.
My sense from your OTHJ book is that the earliest mythicist belief is primarily distinguished by where Jesus did stuff, not whether. Ignatius, by doubling down on earthly historicizing elements, does appear to emphasize where Jesus did stuff (Earth). But at other times by emphasizing that he truly (ἀληθῶς) did stuff, i.e., not falsely, he appears to argue whether Jesus stuff.
Thanks
Good question, but it’s a false dichotomy.
In Obsolete Paradigm (on a basis of recent widespread scholarship) I show Ignatius was probably arguing against Doherty-style mythicist Christians. Which means, opponents who believe Jesus’s murder, burial, and resurrection were real but in a mystery realm (most likely sublunar but possibly in distant lands beyond human eyes, like in or near the lost Garden of Eden), and all the rest was allegory.
But Ignatius (like many of his peers doing the same) were polemicists and thus straw manning, not honestly representing their opponent’s position but mocking it as denying Jesus was real (when that isn’t what they were doing). This is clear from what Ignatius focuses on as the party platform litmus test for insiders vs. those to be shunned, all allegorical stuff (descendant rather than cosmic scion of David; literal birth to a woman named Mary; Pontius Pilate as the murderer; John the Baptist as baptizer; dinner parties witnessed on earth; and so on) not the real points of contention (like where they said Jesus died, at the hand of Satan; that was covered up by simply insisting you had to say it was Pilate, which “ruled out” all mystery teachings to the contrary).
So, functionally, Ignatius is arguing for literalism against allegorism. But why he needed to do that he carefully avoids ever saying, because actually describing the views of his opponents would be to advertise them. There is a lot of corroborating evidence for this take, cited and discussed in Chapter 7.
A question about religious demographics of the Roman Empire: Do you still think Stark’s estimates of the percentage of Christians in the Roman Empire are still accurate? How did Christianity spread so successfully in the Roman Empire, such as in Roman Egypt, etc., even pre-Constantine? Was it due to rapid pre-Constantine conversion of Hellenized Jews to Christianity? Also, do you know what percentage of the population of Roman Egypt, and the larger Roman Empire in general, were Jews?
More or less. I explain in detail, with evidence, in Not the Impossible Faith, Chapter 18. And nothing has changed so far as I know. Though I have critiqued many other claims Stark has made, this one holds up, within reasonable error margins.
But Stark’s numbers show that it did not spread “so successfully.” It spread exactly as successfully as Mormonism. Which you might notice is only marginally successful. Not even 2% of the US after hundreds of years, and growth has stalled. Nor did Mormon’s growth have anything to do with the evidence for it being true or any peculiar genius of its teachings. It advanced entirely on charisma, grift, and standard tit-fot-tat social capture (and for a time, outright warfare).
Christianity was “just another” evangelical mystery cult and grew at the same rate they all did, up to market ceiling, just like all the others. It would have remained a Mormon-style quirky minority cult ever after but for the interventions of Constantine and his family, which ultimately coerced everyone else to be Christian, first with soft power, then (under Theodosius) hard power, and abroad, open coercion and warfare.
As for Jewish populations, estimates range from 3% to 10% of the RE generally (that would include slaves, and may even have been majority slave by the mid-second century). But I’ve never seen any of those numbers sitting on solid facts. So that’s just speculative. It seems safe to say it was “somewhere” around 5%, certainly if we include semi-Jewish “God-fearers,” and the entire Diaspora. It’s unlikely to have differed by province, so I doubt Egypt had “more” Jews than any other province, although Italy-to-the-East likely had more than West of Italy (southward, Jews were probably more common Cyrene-to-the-East than West of Cyrene). And of course there were also sizable Jewish populations East of the RE altogether (especially after being sold eastward after the Jewish Wars, but even well before). But probably less the more East one went.
But Christianity gained no growth with Jews. The Jewish faction only steadily shrunk after early gains pre-War and was almost nonexistent by the 5th century, indeed possibly entirely so, with only an isolated remnant in southern Mesopotamia, outside the Roman Empire (see Chapter 8.1 of Historicity).
Christianity probably was majority Gentile even by just before the first War and all subsequent growth was among Gentiles post-War. Christianity was never very successful in the Jewish market. It was far more popular in the Gentile market, because it had all the attractive features of the exotic Jewish faith but none of the barriers (genital mutilation and a strict rules-Nazi lifestyle). By the time Constantine convened the Council of Nicea, Jewish Christians weren’t even represented. There might not have even been any left by then to summon.
Dr Carrier
Some internet ‘personalities’ (eg Justin – deconstruction zone) aver Jesus existed but was a failed claimant – he didn’t fulfil any OT messianic prophecies. He himself made false apocalyptic prophecies (coming back in glory within the lifetime of the disciples – (Paul seems to agree with the end-is-nigh sentiment)).
The post resurrection appearances are explained as an imposter posing as such – a la Nero – whose resurrected imposter convinced 20,000 men to fight a battle (Actium?). No wonder then, the disciples had a hard time recognising him.
If jesus had been fabricated from OT cloth, wouldn’t he cohere seamlessly with OT themes?
That’s all too speculative. The idea that he fulfilled no prophecies is indeed correct whether he existed or not. But the impostor theory, though clever, is stacking too many epicycles in the face of far simpler and more potent explanations (I cover this in Chs. 4–5 of Historicity).
No. Because no two people ever agreed on what those “OT themes” were or how they should be fulfilled or even whether they should. So what we get are hodgepodges of different ideas about that. Which is entirely expected whether Jesus existed or not. It’s why there are tens of thousands of sects of Christianity: no one can even agree on what Christians are supposed to believe about anything. This is not some new thing. It’s always been the case.