I’ve made the point before that really, Christians and Atheists are only arguing over one single thing: whether the ground of all being has thoughts and feelings or not. Otherwise atheists already agree there is a ground of all being, and that everything that exists does have a causal explanation without thoughts or feelings at the bottom of anything. The only thoughts and feelings are ours (inclusive of other animals and robots in varying degrees; and of course alien life in distant galaxies, but none of that is around here). I’ve also demonstrated many times that Christianity is just a weird conspiracy theory as irrational as every other—and that atheists do not (contrary to ignorant Christian propaganda) “believe in nothing.”
And one of the things I’ve been focusing on the last ten years or so is the methodology of error that keeps all people caught in a delusion trapped there—the methods, it turns out, that are the same no matter whether the delusion is flat earth, antivaxx, red pill, lizard people…or Christianity (or Islam or Cao Dai or any religion whatever, secular or supernatural).
What Are We Talking About?
Atheism of course is just a position on a single question (God) while Christianity is a far more specific position (a very specific god). Atheists can be supernaturalists (like some Taoists and Buddhists) or adopt all manner of weird delusional worldviews that just “happen” not to have gods in them. But most educated atheists are scientific naturalists, meaning, they reject the supernatural and anything that fails scientific tests (which is not the same thing as believing only what science has proved—that’s Christian propaganda again; no one actually believes science is the “only” source of knowledge). And most naturalists are physicalists (almost 70% of all godless philosophers, for example; and 80% of specialists in theory of mind). Physicalism is the most promising world model. It is the simplest theory (positing the fewest ad hoc entities; in fact, it derives all phenomena and hypotheses from already known physics); it is the most precedented theory (everything—literally everything, without exception—dug to the bottom has so far turned out to be just physics); and it has the widest explanatory scope, fitness, and power. It makes more sense of all observations together, and is contradicted by none, predicting even weird details successfully; whereas other views have to ignore evidence or make stuff up to fit (see Ten Ways the World Would Be Different If God Existed for a window into what this looks like).
And this really does reduce the question of what Christians and Atheists are arguing about to whether everything is just physics all the way down, or whether the ultimate ground of existence has thoughts and feelings, to the point that, when you dig all the way to the bottom, it’s actually thoughts and feelings at the bottom of it all. Everything else is minutiae. For example, Christians, being almost the oddest theists in history, have bizarre ideas about those grounding thoughts and feelings and who they belong to and the weird decisions he/it makes. But that’s all just a Fabulous Carriage. It still all comes down to “it has thoughts and feelings” on the one side and “it doesn’t” on the other.
How Christians Derail This Conversation to Avoid It
And once we realize that, a second realization arrives: that all arguments for this All Wise and Powerful Protomolecule fall into either of two bins. The first bin contains bullshit. Everything in there is an eye-rolling semantic game, or a turd of assertion(s) ignorant of existing science and history or other documented facts, and thus automatically refuted by any contact with logic or reality. I shall here dub all those arguments for God “Stupid Shit.” There’s a lot of stupid shit (like this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this). But in the other bin are real questions, which haven’t been conclusively sorted by the sciences (in which I include history and thus contemporary history, e.g. responsible journalism and all other competent fact-checking is a science). These arguments play on questions we really do need to answer, or have some idea of what the answer might be. They are important questions. Theists just exploit them to sell their tinfoil hats.
Often these bins get mixed together. For example, “you can’t explain consciousness, therefore God explains it” combines Stupid Shit (the fallacy of ignorance, that if we don’t know x, therefore we know it’s y) with a real question of moment: what does explain consciousness? If all indicators are pointing to physicalism (and they are), how could physicalism explain it? Theists will often play word games here (it happened in my debate with Inspiring Philosophy), resorting to another kind of Stupid Shit that I call the modal and possibiliter fallacies, to produce what amounts to a constantly shifting motte & bailey, a common device used by delusional people to defend their delusion against its contact with reality:
- The modal fallacy consists of confusing a modal argument (pr. mow-dl, for “mode”) with an empirical argument, and switching back and forth as needed. A modal argument pertains to possibility: the assertion “you can’t explain x observation” is formally refuted by “we can explain it,” in other words, to refute an asserted impossibility we need only prove an available possibility. We don’t have to prove that possibility probable. Because that isn’t what you said. You said impossible. And even just a possible thing disproves that.
- Caught, you might then move the goal posts and change your claim to “I meant, your explanation of that is improbable, therefore God is probable,” which is now a possibiliter fallacy, or possibiliter ergo probabiliter, “possibly; therefore probably.” Which is now an inverse modal fallacy: after falsely accusing us of confusing possibility with probability, you resort to yourself confusing possibility with probability. But the fact that one explanation, x, is improbable does not entail any other explanation, y, is probable.
So whether modal or possibiliter, it’s a fallacy. And fallacies are stupid. So you should know better.
For an example of that fallacy as deployed in resurrection apologetics, see my analysis of it as deployed once by Stephen Davis. The gist is to claim that if the total set of all logically possible explanations can be reduced to, say, ten things, and one of them (like a specific naturalist theory—there being five others still) is “improbable” (like, say, 20% likely), it “follows” (wink wink) that another of them (like a specific supernaturalist theory—there also being five others still) is “probable” (like, say, 80% likely). But that violates the Law of Excluded Middle. All five supernaturalist theories even together (much less individually) could well be 0.00001% likely, which is a million times less probable than the one you were claiming to be “improbable.” This is an inescapable mathematical fact—and thus stupid to deny.
For example, it could be that the evidence entails it is over 99% likely that one of the five naturalist theories is true. Even if each one is only about 20% likely on present evidence and thus every one by itself is “improbable,” that one of them is true is nevertheless well nigh 100% certain. Because ~20% + ~20% + ~20% + ~20% + ~20% ≈ 100%. So just because all five naturalist theories are improbable does not mean any supernaturalist theory is probable, or even probable enough to take seriously. Because the probability that it is naturalism is the sum of the probabilities of all possible naturalist explanations. And that means all—because logical validity requires leaving none out of this account (apologetics thus almost always operates by leaving things out—things that, when put back in, reverse the conclusion the apologist was trying to get). Even if we defend the least likely naturalist hypothesis—let’s say, something only 0.0001% likely to be true—if theism is 0.00001% likely, it is still ten times less likely. So even proving a theory “very improbable” does not get you to “therefore theism is probable.” It may be even less probable than what’s very improbable. And if your theory is less probable than something already improbable, then your theory is probably false, not “probably true.” But since most people are confused by how math works, Christians will exploit that.
Indeed, we cannot even say that something only 0.0001% likely is false. If we have only two options, and one is physically 0.0001% likely (“winning the lottery,” happening only one in every million buys) and the other is physically 0.00001% likely (“rigging the lottery,” happening only one in every ten million buys—in a corrupt country, say), and those are the only two explanations for how you took home a documented lottery payment, then the second option is ten times less likely than the first; and so the final epistemic probability that you won fair is close to 90%, and not 0.0001%; and that you rigged the lottery is only about 10%, not 0.00001%. So even if every option is “very improbable,” because one of the options logically necessarily must be true, its probability of being trus is not the physical probability of it occurring, but derives from the ratio between that and the physical probability of any of the other things happening instead.
I shouldn’t have to explain any of that. It’s annoying every time I have to. But Christian apologetics is almost entirely Stupid Shit like this that requires explaining basic sixth grade math to grown adults. The lesson is “but that’s improbable” is never a valid argument for any alternative—unless you can prove some other explanation more probable. That is, in fact, the only effective thing there is to do. And if you can’t do that, you’re done. If you keep arguing after that, you are Being Stupid (hence we get Formalized Gullibility as a Modern Christian Methodology and Three Common Confusions of Creationists). But this does go both ways. An atheist can try to believe nothing, to “suspend belief” in everything, but that’s actually impossible in practice—you have to make decisions, and your every decision hinges on assuming some thing is true that you were pretending five minutes ago you were “suspending” belief in. So atheists can be stupid too. It’s a human folly, not a distinctly supernaturalist one.
But I’ve covered that before (see Who Is an Atheist? and Misunderstanding the Burden of Proof, as well as Correcting 5 Mistakes Atheists Make About Epistemology). What I want to do today is move past this error-mode and follow the train of thought where it must lead.
If we accept that improbable things can be true, indeed even the most probably true (and as just demontrated, they can), and therefore Christians cannot argue “that’s improbable, therefore God” or “you can’t explain that, therefore God,” what remains is to ask what is a more probable explanation than God for all the things not yet “explained.” I put “explained” now in scare quotes to call attention to how the Christian’s stupid game plays out, whereby they switch at will between two different meanings of the word “explained,” the meaning that “the sciences have explained it,” i.e. we have proved an explanation assuredly enough true (e.g. all biological species arose from evolution by natural selection), and the meaning that “scientists have a variety of working explanations but haven’t proved which is true yet,” i.e. we “have explanations” but haven’t proved any of them yet. Of course the Christian is leaning on the second—God (least of all the weird Christian god) has not been proved “assuredly true” by any science either. So it is hypocritical to set a higher bar for naturalists than they accept for themselves. But that’s their stupid game. And I’m sick of stupid games.
I want to get to the other bin, the one not Full of Stupid. Christians keep wasting our time, like streetcorner loons, on The Stupid. But let’s steer away from that and go to the hip cafe across the street, where the few remaining marginally sane Christians agree with us on The Stupid and want to talk about unstupid things instead. Here we all agree that any explanation that works and has not been refuted with evidence is worth talking about—and everything else isn’t. So these Christians aren’t going to roll our eyes with hypocritical semantic dances around what it means to “have” an explanation for something. Rather, they want to take seriously what our best explanation is, and we’ll repay the courtesy by taking seriously what their best explanation is, and then test those two competing theories against each other on the metrics:
- Simplicity. How many unevidenced assumptions do we need to get it to work—and how improbable on all previous scientific and historical knowledge are those assumptions? Because if two theories have these assumptions, but one relies on more, or more improbable ones, it loses on this criterion to the other theory (a mathematically unavoidable fact).
- Precedent. How well does our explanation match and fit previously successful explanations of everything that has been “explained” in that other sense of already proved to a reasonable certainty? If we’ve dug a million holes and always found rocks at the bottom, the epistemic probability that these other holes we are digging will also have rocks at the bottom is far higher than that they will have candy there, or mysterious glowing orbs, or a talking dirt god.
- Evidence. How well does our explanation predict all the evidence we have—all, not some; and especially the weirdest or most peculiar details? Does our explanation perform well, or poorly? Do we have to make excuses for why it fails? Do we have to handwave and talk about mysteries as an excuse for why our theory fails to predict all the oddities we see? These are admissions of failure on this metric, not defenses against its failing. A theory that does better at this is simply more probable.
There is no other metric to win by (as I formally prove in chapter four of Proving History). These are it.
Who Wins?
Christians like to talk about winning debates because they believe in winning, not the truth. That is a defining feature of all delusions. Having a clinical delusion is like having a little homunculus in your head constantly steering you away from discovering the truth. Apologetics as a discipline and a practice is not about getting at the truth but defending a belief against the truth. It’s all about evasion. Evasion can take a direct form (leaving or avoiding a conversation altogether; siloing; filtering; getting angry and flipping the table, literally or figuratively, to avoid continuing a conversation) or an indirect form (changing the subject; moving the goal posts; straw manning; semantic maneuvering; fallacy-chasing; talking in circles; motte & bailey; etc.).
The last resort (albeit in result a common one) is simply lying. Lying about what someone said. Lying about what the facts are. Lying about what facts you checked. Lying by omission or false light. This is evasion because the entire point of the lie is to avoid the consequences of instead telling or facing the truth. If you lie about what someone argued, to refute some fake thing you pretend they said instead, you have thereby evaded what they actually argued—you have not rebutted it. You only pretended to.
But if we care about discovering the truth rather than “winning,” we can redefine winning more honestly as having the best case objectively rather than emotionally. An emotional win is creating the false appearance of having been right through emotional abuse and manipulation, like gaslighting, browbeating, chest pumping, pwn clipping, blustering—relying on projected confidence alone, rather than knowledge or legitimacy. This often relies on emotionally assertive language, mocking language, winning by attitude and pretense rather than logic or facts. But an objective win is when you actually had all the correct facts and your inferences were actually sound and valid and not fallacious. Because with that there is no way to be wrong, other than by improbable chance accident. For example, with all true facts and logic, you might reach a conclusion of admitted uncertainty about something—which is sufficient to refute an opponent’s assertions of certainty on it. This is a valid modal argument: prove a thing uncertain, and you have disproved another’s certainty. That does not require proving they are wrong; “we can’t know that’s true” is not “we know that’s false.” But proving you don’t know something still does mean you don’t know it.
Here I am aiming at more than “we don’t know God exists” but “we know it’s most probably physics all the way down,” which entails God does not exist (at least nowhere around here). I drew up the following diagram to capture the program this puts us on:

In the center is “known reality,” everything we’ve dug to the bottom of, through all the sciences and direct personal experience. That contains everything humanity knows is true to an effective certainty, including unknown things we know enough things about to an effective certainty. For example, we might not know exactly what happened to Flight 370 but we know it catastrophically crashed into the sea somewhere; and even if we didn’t know that, we’d know it wasn’t downed by gremlins or flew to the moon or slipped through a time warp on a failed mission to kill Hitler. So all this sort of stuff, stuff we know to a very high probability, is in that center circle. Around that central circle I have placed eight circles of unfinished programs in science; and at bottom, uncircled, a ninth catch-all category, of all that Stupid Stuff I mentioned that gets nowhere.
The first thing we learn from this is that, oddly, everything—literally everything—inside that center circle is all natural, in fact all physicalist; not a single instance of the supernatural. Which is why Naturalism Is Not an Axiom of the Sciences but a Conclusion of Them. It is extremely improbable that all supernatural facts would so successfully and consistently “hide” from us, showing up only in legends from distant jungles and other conveniently isolated places where no real tests could prove them. There is a reason all UFO photos are blurry nonsense; and that miracles only show up in scams and fables. This is evidence that there aren’t any of these things. If Christianity were true, the world should look very different than this.
So Christianity loses on precedent. A lot. Indeed, catastrophically. Whereas physicalism wins—by lightyears. To try and “fix” this failed prediction by making excuses for why God (and, apparently, Satan and every other supernatural power and thing, up to and including human souls) deliberately hides all this evidence, you trade a tie on evidence for a catastrophic loss on simplicity. You already lost by adopting many improbable assumptions (supernatural cosmic monsters with oddly convenient and unprecedented properties and powers) but now you are sinking your case further by attributing to the superman you invented even stranger goals and motives than are humanly conceivable. If your theory has to become “God made sure to make the entire world look exactly like it would look if there was no God,” you have just invented a Cartesian Demon, the least probable explanation of anything. That is not a defense. That is a confession—that your God theory is too improbable to credit. Physicalism doesn’t have this problem.
Okay. So that’s bad. But maybe the stuff outside that circle can turn this around? Outside the circle is just those two bins I mentioned: Stupid Stuff; and real interesting philosophical questions.
We can toss all the Stupid Stuff. There are supposedly over a hundred arguments for God, though most are duplicates (the same argument restated). But if we chew the list down to nonredundant arguments, most of what’s left is Stupid Stuff (semantic trickery or ignorant bullshit). And this includes things like the Argument from Reason, the Argument from Free Will, and the Argument from Beauty. In reality these are already settled facts in the center circle. That the physicalist account of free will (formally called compatibilism) is the only account actually employed in the real world is literally settled law worldwide. Debates remain only in the ivory tower, divorced from reality. Indeed only 30% of godless philosophers think there is any debate left; which is plausibly about the rate of bad philosophers generally. But even most of them think the debate is only about what words to use—they are almost all still determinists. Only 11% of godless philosophers are undecided about that. Similarly, none of the things claimed to be mysterious about how humans can think logically, or how thinking logically more reliably gets to the truth, actually exist—science has answered them all. Likewise how and why humans have a beauty response. Physicalism has explained (through cognitive evolution) even the specific kinds of beauty we do and don’t “see” and react to. It outperforms God at this task. But more to the present point, this is all already settled science. It’s not even an open question anymore. Only someone ignorant of the science would make it into an argument for God.
That leaves bin two: all the questions left over that are actually unsettled (in that sense). As best I can tell there are only eight of these. So the question becomes: how well does Christianity perform against physicalism in explaining those eight things? We cannot here mean “explain” in the proven or “proven enough” sense because none are in the center circle. There is no scientific proof that God explains these things. So the theist can’t appeal to that. They can only appeal to hypothetical explanations. And therefore they are on the same ground as physicalist explanations. The Christian cannot claim “but that’s just a hypothesis,” as that would refute themselves. God is also “just a hypothesis” here. So we are comparing hypotheses, not proven conclusions. As a hypothesis is God simpler, more precedented, and more evidenced than physicalism on any of these eight things? The obvious answer is no. This does not mean we’ve “proved” physicalist explanations for them all. What it means is that physicalist explanations exist that are far more probable than Christian explanations—because they win on simplicity, precedent, and evidence.
Scoring Physicalism’s Defeat of Christianity
I have already explained elsewhere all the ways the following conclusions are true, listing all the evidence and arguments and whatnot there. So if you want to guffaw at any of the following declarations, use this blog’s search box above, or category drop down menu above right, to hunt down the complete coverage of each subject. Here, I’m just listing the results.
I won’t score any more on precedent, as God always fails on that: we have zero evidence backing the existence of any supernatural property or thing; while physicalism relies on only physical things, which all have precedent, either directly (particles make brains, distorted space makes gravity, etc.) or indirectly (as particles and warped spaces are established, positing more kinds of them has precedent). So physicalism always wins precedent on the current state of evidence—leaving only to compare each theory on simplicity and evidence.
- 1. Existence. Why does anything exist at all? Because nothing existing is the least likely possibility. When no thing and no one is around to decide what is more likely to exist, that logically entails every possibility is equally likely. And when every possibility is equally likely, a single zero state is infinitely unlikely to exist; while chaotic multiverses, infinitely more likely. Physicalism therefore entails a world will exist. By contrast, on theism, there is no inherent reason why God, being perfect and complete, would create any world at all, as doing so would be an admission that he lacked something needing to be made.
- Therefore no matter what P(E|p) and P(E|G) are, P(E|p) > P(E|G). Physicalism wins. On no ad hoc suppositions at all; whereas God requires at least one. Physicalism also predicts why existence is so indifferent and dangerous; theism does not—without stacking more, and implausible, ad hoc suppositions.
- 2. Ground of Being. What is the ground of all being, the thing at the bottom of everything that keeps it going and gives it all its properties? Physicists call this a Theory of Everything. Currently the most promising physical grounding theory that covers everything to be explained (the extended Standard Model covering all four known forces) is string theory, now more comprehensively known as “M-Theory.” Already the four forces and extended standard model explain all observed facts. So all we really do need explain is why spacetime and subatomic particles have and maintain the properties they do. M-Theory can reduce it all to fluctuations in hyperspacetime, leaving only to explain why those exist, which is answered by problem 1 above.
- “But you don’t know that’s what it reduces to” is, again, not a relevant objection here. Other theories may end up being better. But right now, M-Theory can explain it all with few ad hoc elements. It proposes more dimensions of space at small scales, but that just adapts things already precedented (warped dimensions). Everything else follows. By contrast, “God” does not explain why we need twelve different quarks glued together by eight different bosons with the few specific wavelike properties they have (like spin and wavelength) and don’t have (like essences, e.g. none “are” water or love or bark). M-Theory does. It thus outperforms God in predictive match to the evidence, with fewer suppositions, and only with suppositions of substantially greater precedent and thus probability. So in the death match between this and God, God hits the mat, dead before first bell. Again P(B|p) > P(B|G).
- 3. Fine Tuning. Why are the fundamental grounding properties conducive to life? They actually aren’t (99.9999% of the universe is lethal to life); this is actually the least hospitable universe you could make and still have any life arise at all. Which is the highest probability observation on physicalism, whereas God does not need to tune universes at all. In fact, all logically possible godless worlds observed will be finely tuned. P(F|p) = 100%. Whereas God has no reason to do that. He can just make any world he wants work, without convoluted tuning of needless physical constants. P(F|G) < 1.
- Therefore, P(F|p) > P(F|G). Fewer assumptions gets us more and more accurate predictions. The Utter Destruction of the Fine Tuning Argument.
- 4. Biogenesis. Life originating by chance is extremely improbable even in this supposedly finely tuned universe, so how did it arise? The Law of Large Numbers. On physicalism, only chance accident can do it; and the probability of that is only high in worlds vastly old and large, so physicalism predicts we’ll observe a vastly old and large universe. God does not entail that observation; physicalism does. Likewise, chance accident (and thus physicalism) entails we’d see evidence life evolved from a single molecule across simpler PNA to progressively more complex RNA and then DNA and into ever more complex single celled organisms, only after a billion years figuring out mono-tissued multicellular organisms, and multi-tissued multicellular organisms only a billion more years after that—and all subsequent life would be cooperating stacks of these same single-celled organisms. That is 100% expected on physicalism because it is then the only possible pathway for life. God, however, has no need of any of this, and therefore does not predict (and therefore does not explain) any of this, without stacks of implausible ad hoc suppositions.
- Therefore, again, P(L|p) = 100% and P(L|G) < 100%, ergo, P(L|p) > P(L|G). Physicalism’s explanation is simpler, better precedented, and far better evidenced.
- 5. Qualia. The only thing about consciousness (and thus things like love, beauty, thought, experience) that remains to be completely explained is the quality of it, the “what it is like” to see, hear, feel, think. But here the evidence is thoroughly predicted by physicalism, which has perfectly coherent and complete explanations of it all; with evidence that is not at all what we expect on theism. Essentially no suppositions are needed for physicalism to explain observations here but the hypothesis of computationalism itself, and what we observe is 100% the only thing we could observe—this is the only way we could exist on physicalism. The same is not true for God. God therefore fails at predicting all we see; and any attempt to fix that fails at simplicity.
- So no matter how you cut it, P(Q|p) > P(Q|G).
- 6. Abstract Objects. The catch-all for abstractions, propositions, ideas, all the things that don’t seem physical or in need of the physical. Physicalism readily explains it all on the original model of Aristotle, that every thing in this category (word or proposition) refers to a physically instantiated pattern, and exists either potentially (as what existing things could be reshaped into) or actually (as what existing things are shaped into). This would be true in all possible universes (it is not logically possible to have a universe in which physical arrangements cannot even potentially arise—even if you imagine some force preventing it, the logical potential exists to remove that force). So there is nothing for God to explain here (All Godless Universes Are Mathematical, All Math Is Real, There Is Always a Spacetime to Warp, and God Is Not Needed for “Information” and “Laws”).
- Here, P(A|p) = P(A|G), because God couldn’t even prevent this being the case if he existed.
- 7. Moral Facts. Should we be caring and honest, or all cutthroat sociopaths? This doesn’t really evince anything. If it were true that we should all be cutthroat sociopaths, that would be annoying, but it wouldn’t make God any more likely. But we do believe people should be caring and honest. Why? Theists propose God is a good answer. But he’s not. If God were the reason, the universe should exhibit God’s caring and honest nature (it wouldn’t be a mindless cutthroat sociopath; and God would not hide but make himself honestly and reliably available as a friend and consultant). Physicalism predicts that we would instead observe exactly what we do: only thousands of years of meandering human trial and error inventing better ways to live together (which just obviously happens to be by not being cutthroat sociopaths). Otherwise, moral facts exist in all possible universes. So God could not explain them even if he existed. Otherwise, all the evidence or moral facts is exactly as predicted by physicalism, not God.
- So, again, P(M|p) > P(M|G).
- 8. Reason to Live. Usually vaguebooked as the “meaning of life” or “life’s purpose,” what people are really asking when they ask this question is, “Why bother?” That’s the only actual question to answer. And once you realize that, and think about it, it does tend to answer itself: because no matter how you drew this lucky straw, you’ve been handed a whole hope chest of opportunities, to live, love, know, create, help—to experience and enjoy life and people. Which is inherently better than having not been. This even transcends the question of death, since “Why should I spend a trillion billion million years adoring God in heaven?” also begs an answer. The only answer could be, “Because you’d like that.” Which means anything you like suffices. So it doesn’t have to be that (and really, when honest, everyone admits it absolutely would not be that). Like moral facts, this really can’t ever be evidence for God anyway, since “life is pointless” would never make God’s existence more likely (the fallacy of Argument from Desire is actually Stupid). But the pertinent evidence (that we are accidentally popped into a capricious world only to die a few decades later, and thus have to make the best of what that leaves us) is actually what physicalism predicts, not God. If heaven is a better world than this one, God could never have morally made this one. He’d just put us in heaven and manage it better. And making excuses for “why God wouldn’t do that obviously more intelligent and moral thing” is, again, a confession not a defense—its just covertly admitting God does not fit the evidence, so you have to invent implausible fantasies to force God to fit it. But either way, God again fails on either evidence or simplicity.
- It’s P(R|p) > P(R}G). Again.
And that’s that. God wins on no metric, and loses on seven of them. God’s done. Physicalism wins on all eight. It’s obvious who’s right.
Conclusion
So in the end, Christianity, even as just the most stripped down theory of God, is much less probable than physicalism by every remaining test. It doesn’t win on established reality. It doesn’t win on stupid stuff. And it doesn’t win on the eight remaining frontiers of scientific knowledge, completing all the furniture of existence. And Christianity is never really that anyway. It is always in fact a gigantic monstrosity of far more bizarre claims about blood magic, celestial wars, pointless ontological contortions, and long lists of absurd cosmic plans and dogmas. It’s a patently stupid looking religion…when you step back and look at it. But the actual thing itself is trillions of times less probable than even the stripped down ultra-simple God hypothesis apologists drag out to the public as their show-pony in debates instead. And yet even that slick, fake show-pony is bollocks, compared to the far more successful model of scientific naturalism.
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In reference to your point about winning or rigging the lottery (and without regard to your statements about the 8 remaining questions in your diagram – biogenesis, qualia, etc.):
1. Yes, the ratio of habitable to uninhabitable worlds is an undefinable quantity (and that has been proved under peer review even). But it fails for a dozen other reasons as well, including the fact that no one has even proved yet that any constants are tunable. As that is hypothetical, so is any conclusion derived from it as a premise. For these points and more see Utter Destruction.
2. DNA did not spontaneously assemble. It is an evolved structure. So are cells. The mathematical certainty of arriving at them by reproduction with natural selection is as near to 1 as makes all odds, so they have no improbability relevant to the point. Biogenesis most likely started with PNA. And as linked and noted, even now we have numerous PNA self-replicating molecules small enough to have spontaneously assembled by lottery given the age and size of the observable universe, e.g. the Schreiber molecule has a random assembly probability per trial of 1 in 10^16 (even with a starter duplicate it’s 1 in 10^32), and the trial space is 10^150 (Dembski). Even with the lowball space of 10^50 (Borel), the probability is circa 100% that 10^34 events as improbable as 1 in 10^16 have already happened in the known universe. That’s a 1 followed by 34 zeroes. And 10^16 events have happened with a probability of 1 in 10^32. That’s 10,000,000,000,000,000 times. Not maybe once. But ten million trillion times.
3. You’d have to make a more specific claim to have an answerable question here. But…
To shuffle a deck back into factory order at random is above 1 in 10^67. Setting aside that human shuffling is not fully random (just random enough for play), for that to credibly happen (e.g. if we used some machine to shuffle the deck in a way that is verifiably actually random) would require at least 10^45 shuffles, which is below the Borel threshold for cosmic events but not earthly events.
So you should not expect to see that happen. But if it did, the competing hypotheses are “this is one of the 10^5 Borel events” and “someone rigged the shuffle/switched the deck/etc.” Given about 10^11 shuffles to date, the attenuated probability is 10^56, but given that you can also expect at least one shuffle at or under odds of 10^11 by now, the threshold for random chance to produce this result is that same 10^45. So if the probability of a trick is higher, it is the more likely explanation—unless evidence stacks improbably enough against that conclusion, i.e. we create some sort of lab conditions that lower the probability of trickery below 1 in 10^45.
None of this pertains here because biogenesis is a game played on trillions of trillions of planets and moons, not just 10^11 times here on Earth. That was the point of Borel working out what the odds become when we allow trials on a cosmic scale, not just on one planet, and he correctly derived a lower bound of 1 in 10^50. His data was out of date, so the Christian creationist William Dembski recalculated it at 1 in 10^150 (in No Free Lunch), which is again a reasonable lower bound. So, for poker deck shuffling, we are looking at a base number of events of 10^11. But for biogenesis we are looking at a base number of events of 10^150. If people existed on every planet and moon that existed and all played poker, then yes, they would see random shuffles reproduce the factory order of cards around 10^83 times. That’s a one followed by eighty-three zeroes.
For fine tuning, no numbers are generable. So none of this math can be done. There are a dozen or so reasons why. All explained in the link.
But one possibility that hasn’t been ruled out is the logical necessity of a parainfinite multiverse (demonstrations linked), whereby for any finite probability it is infinitely likely there are enough universes to have produced an event that rare, provided the event is properly definable (like choosing a finite set of actually random constants in a measurable possibility-space). Boltzmann outcomes will then be comparatively improbable (i.e. standard Big Bang worlds will be parainfinitely more common than Boltzmann outcomes), as also discussed in the linked materials.
There are other possibilities with similar results. The sum of the epistemic probabilities of all those possibilities is then the actual epistemic probability of random fine tuning, not the actual ratio of habitable to inhabitable worlds. For example, no one posits a multiverse ad hoc (Christians who say or pretend they do are doing Stupid Stuff). All multiverse models are entailed by other far simpler posits. So the dependent probability of fine tuning by chance is not the probability of there being a sufficiently large multiverse for no reason (which is astronomically low) but the sum of the probabilities of all possible alternatives that entail a multiverse.
For example, since the dependent probability of an infinite multiverse on Eternal Inflation Theory is 100%, the epistemic probability of a multiverse is simply the empirical probability of Eternal Inflation Theory, which follows from existing evidence without any reference at all to its consequences (like an infinite multiverse).
Conversely, even on single-universe models, the undefinable probability of chance fine tuning is not arguably less than the undefinable probability of being so lucky as to have a God exist instead, and is arguably vastly more probable, because that has simplicity, precedent, and evidence, while God has none of those three and therefore almost certainly requires a far more improbable amount of luck than chance fine tuning. Which is confirmed by the evidence (chance fine tuning makes predictions all of which are confirmed, while design makes predictions none of which are confirmed).
And so on.
Christianity is not primarily an intellectual assertion. Understanding the situation requires understanding what it really is. Christianity is mostly an arrangement of social and emotional ties for an individual with the expectation these ties will be destroyed if the Christian does not advocate specific points of view.
Usually I advocate strongly against ad hominem arguments. But if the root problem is that the person you are listening to has opinions controlled by these social and emotional ties, and this includes doctrines that explicitly say that paying attention to evidence is harmful, the only thing to do is decide not to listen to these people until they free themselves from these ties that make it a waste of time and energy to listen to them. One such doctrine is Proverbs 3:5–6: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”
Hmm. I encountered recently the claim that God is omniproblematic, and now I am claiming He is omniextortionist.
If you have 5 theories, each of which has probability 20% being true, the probability that none is true is by winning at 80% 5 times in a row, or 33%. (0.8 ** 5)
That’s the wrong math. You are calculating repeated tries. I am delimiting a probability space. This isn’t a deck we get to reshuffle.
If P(sandwich|lunch) is 20% and P(hot dog|lunch) is 40% then the probability is 60% that I have had either a hot dog or a sandwich. Not 24% (60% × 40%).
So you set up five mutually exclusive naturalistic explanations, each of which is 20% likely by subjective assessment, thereby totally occupying all possible outcomes, making it impossible that any further naturalistic explanations let alone a supernatural explanation, are possible?
That’s only a toy example. I am not saying there actually are five and they actually have exactly that relative chance of being true. I am saying if there were, then we’d get the effect described. So no matter how you jigger the model (make it five million models, have a spread of probabilities for them all rather than all the same probability) the same point follows.
So, to say it is “not” like that, requires evidence that it is not. And “your one model has a 20% probability of being true, therefore my preferred model has an 80% probability of being true” is not evidence. Because that statement violates the law of Excluded Middle (there are many alternatives and they all split the probability space; and the sum of all their probabilities must logically necessarily sum to 1, because that is a basic axiom of probability, and for a reason).
Even if you dodge that fallacy and say something like “yours is 20% and therefore mine is at least over 50% (and the remaining 30% covers all the others)” remains a non sequitur, because theory A being 20% does not even imply any probability at all for theory B, much less that probability.
So, now that you understand (?) what’s actually going on here, to your question:
This is the same fallacy I’m warning you against. New information changes the probability spread (all posteriors get updated). So we cannot say what will or won’t happen in the future like this. That on current information there are ten models and they exhaust all logical possibilities does not entail that in five minutes time you won’t get new information that adds a model and now you have 11 and you have to work out what changes in the probability distribution. Epistemic probability is only about what the probabilities are given what you know. It is not about what probabilities those will be for all future time.
There is also bifurcation, e.g. one model occupying 20% (or 30% or 80% or whatever) of the probability space could be split into two or more mutually exclusive theories (this is in fact what science is doing all the time as it narrows its explanatory power with advances on old theories), as that is entirely analytical and thus arbitrary. If no information changes, those two theories must share the probability space (e.g. if it’s 20% for the covering theory, the probabilities for the subsets of that theory must sum to 20%). But usually a scientist then goes looking for differential predictions and makes observations that shift these probabilities, and such new information can increase the sum of 20% to even 80% of the total probability space, while diverting one of the two subtheories to only 1% of that space and the rest to the 79%. And so on.
This is all probability theory 101. You just have to get on the right track of what’s even being discussed.
Thank you for putting this all together. I linked to this in a comment to James W. Miller, who has been posting a lot of nonsense attacking atheism on Medium. See It’s about the claim that the ultimate ground behind all this has thoughts and feelings. That is what it is about. Atheists, of course, agree that there is an ultimate ground behind our universe. The… – Merle – Medium
Years ago I got sucked into a long debate on Psience Quest on life after death and “woo”. ( see https://mindsetfree.blog/adventures-in-psienceland/ ) One thing that came up in that debate was the number of scientists who go along with the idea that the ultimate source of reality is consciousness or mind. For instance, Max Planck wrote, “I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-is-the-filter-theory-committing-the-ad-hoc-fallacy-and-is-it-unfalsifiable?pid=52400#pid52400
So the idea that there is a fundamental mind or consciousness behind it all keeps seeping in even among scientists.
I certainly agree with you that the ultimate source of the universe had no mind.
BTW, when I wrote about finding it hard to see how my consciousness that I observe could exist, I certainly was not agreeing with people like Max Planck that wrote that consciousness was the ultimate reality. My consciousness is secondary, the result of a long string of natural processes. That is surely how my consciousness came to exist, but how it could happen, that baffles me.
Yeah. Citing old dead white guys is one of the worst forms of Fallacy of Argument from Authority.
Planck of course had literally no relevant knowledge on this subject. All the pertinent advances and discoveries in brain science and cognitive science occurred after he was dead.
But panpsychism is experiencing a revival of late, mostly among fringe cranks. And since we are in the post truth era, scientific ignorance is becoming more common now than even in Planck’s day, resulting in a resurgence of Idealism in philosophy (mostly, meaning, Christianity) which is face-palmingly embarrassing. Inspiring Philosophy even tried claiming galactic filaments demonstrate the existence of a cosmic mind, which even Deepak Chopra would have been too embarrassed to say.
We truly are now in the Era of Idiocracy. And it will take work to get us back to Enlightenment.
Max Planck made a number of statements that were consistent with his inherited Lutheran faith. For instance, he wrote, “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent spirit… This spirit is the matrix of all matter.”
This sounds to me like a theological statement, worded so that theists can hear the dog whistles of faith while still trying to be consistent with what he knew from science. When I see things like this, I never know if the person really believes this stuff or is carefully wording phrases that sound religious to impress his theistic friends without abandoning the science he does in his work life.
Although Planck did not have the modern understanding of brain biology, he certainly should have known that his study into quantum mechanics was not leading him closer to a conscious mind behind it all.
My guess is that he said things like this to keep from offending his Lutheran family and friends. Nobody really knows.
The position that places consciousness first is essentially solipsistic. It has the appeal that our own experience of existing comes before any external phenomena, with the latter necessarily filtered through sensation. It is the singular achievement of science to have constructed a world model capable of supplanting the persuasiveness of subjective experience by its overwhelming success in manipulating objective reality.
At the point of contact, the xians are trying to stem a hemorrhage of believers, and the atheists are trying to help people free themselves from delusory shackles. Logic and philosophical reasoning are generally way down the list of concerns. Xians in doubt need reassurance that what they had relied on church people for is available elsewhere. Atheists involved are often former xians sympathetic with those still on the fence, wanting to help but wary of seeming too pushy. It all becomes a negotiation.
Hi, Dr Carrier! I’d just like to start by thanking you. A decade ago, I was a follower of Thomist crank and occasional adversary of the blog, Edward Feser. Though my path to deconstructing Christianity took a while, your blog has been helpful in increasing my understanding as of late. I’ve only now come to realize how utterly bankrupt my epistemology used to be. On reflection, what I was doing was little more than defending a complex of emotional associations by way of obscurantism. I’ve come to realize that the unfalsifiability and baroque complexity of systems like Thomism is actually a feature rather than a bug, because that’s how I used them as a believer. In other words, the point was to be able to convince myself that all these bizarre claims had been “proven” somehow by very smart people that I didn’t have either the time or inclination to understand. But the answer was definitely there if you took the time to look for it, thus it was OK to just believe and not look for it. It was an appeal to authority, but a fuzzy authority that could never be pinned down to a falsifiable claim. You could always move the goalposts or claim the interlocutor didn’t “get it”. In fact, for this purpose, the fact that Thomism was unpopular and essentially a bespoke philosophy specifically for the Catholic Church was actually helpful, as it made it easier to claim that the person arguing against it was unfamiliar with it. The whole game is to give the impression that you need a degree in bullshitology or else your decision to stop being Catholic is not justified.
To expand on this, I bring two offerings that may be of interest to you. Firstly is Feser’s recent, very unwise attempt to take his philosophy outside of the Ivory Tower. He ends up suggesting that addiction is caused by (of all things) antisociality. Or wanting to control your own individual pleasure, or some other right-wing horseshit.
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2026/04/rational-social-animals-and-addiction.html
The second offering is the really juicy one. This is a “journal” (really a glorified mailing list) from 2012, to which Feser contributed, and which I found after much Google-Fu. It gives a really fascinating look into how he operates when among friends whom he doesn’t expect to question him. Because of that, he lets the mask slip more than usual, giving hints as to the real game being played. The actual subject of the paper is on trying to harmonize his Aristotelian physics with Newtonian inertia (because his arguments for God require that everything moving (either locally or changing more generally) be moved imminently by another. Feser even admits that he’s aware that the problem is more fundamental than this, because science has reduced most other forms of motion (say, heating up) to forms of local motion (IE, objects becoming hot is not fundamentally different from objects moving from place to place, it’s simply a matter of the local movement of smaller particles). But the entire “response” is just filled with howlers instead of a considered response. He starts by claiming that it is possible that the PoM is not false because it could be the case that an external force causes objects to obey Newton’s First Law, thus causing their motion that way. He immediately admits that this is unparsimonious, and says he’ll get back to justifying it later. He never does. Later, he makes a completely egregious jab that those who think local motion is eternal and thus in no need of explanation are “the atheistic successors of early modern thinkers like Descartes and Newton (who themselves did not go in this atheistic direction).” He talks about how, even though science has developed increasingly complicated mechanical models of the universe since the Greek Atomists, “the story is insufficient to eliminate
all possible starting points for an Aristotelian argument from motion to an Unmoved Mover” – showing that he is not interested in what’s most probable, but instead looking for gaps to jam his god into. Finally, and most absurdly of all, he unironically suggests that Thomists should repurpose Aquinas’ explanation for the movement of the planets as a viable solution to the “problem” of inertial motion. If you recall, Aquinas’ explanation was that angels moved them. Yes, he is unironically advocating for the idea that angels are responsible for conservation of momentum.
https://faculty.fordham.edu/klima/SMLM/PSMLM10/PSMLM10.pdf
Oh yes. We know Feser and his poor comprehension skills. Which is enough to explain why he is trapped in that ridiculous Thomist worldview.
This is important to note. If this is how it seemed and felt from the other side that’s helpful to know. Thank you.
I am working on developing a treatise on the methodology of error, and one of the organizing principles I have found to be that all bogus epistemologies are collections of tools that look just like legitimate tools. Which suggests that’s how they gain credence and a hold on people. A classic example is ad hominem, which is a real fallacy, but dismissing criticism of someone’s competence when it is proved, and proved relevant, on the principle that “ad hominem is a fallacy” is not the fallacy. But it looks and feels like it is.
I think this “you don’t understand” angle is another example: there are conditions under which that is a valid argument. When you have run an argument to ground and your interlocutor simply doesn’t understand any of your rebuttals—as happened with Feser attempting to answer me—ending the argument by concluding they don’t get it and apparently never will is valid. But only because you did all due diligence and ran it to ground. I had the same experience with Loke. I gave him every opportunity and all I got back was a stalwart failure to ever understand anything I said as soon as it was important that he do.
But that allows someone to make an argument go away by claiming that of someone without having earned it. It feels like the real argument. But it isn’t. The key then is being able to tell the difference. Which I think is the essential critical thinking skill that most training in critical thinking is missing.
This practice of armchairing a thing, forgetting there is decades of science to check first (hundreds of more competent and informed people have spent millions of dollars across decades getting this right—so it makes no sense to forget the product of all their labor even exists, much less that it might have the answer you are asking for), is a standard feature of conservative worldviews generally. You see it in the confusion of how transphobes think they are talking about science, but show no knowledge at all of the relevant science.
I’ve explored this phenomenon a few times (e.g. How Pseudo-Rationality Grounds Conservative Worldviews and An Anatomy of Contemporary Right-Wing Delusions; and getting close to really understanding it in Even Hobbits Could Build Advanced Civilizations and How Not to Be an Idiot).
I do now often suspect there is a game underneath every argument, and that disingenuousness and gaslighting is more the norm from “believers” (regardless of what they fanatically believe in).
And it’s funny that you document him trying to get Aristotelian theory of motion (which subsequent Aristotelians refuted within two generations, making it so embarrassing Christians still follow the old refuted theory because that’s all that dumb medieval Christians knew about because early Church Fathers like Origen said to throw away all advanced Aristotelian physics) to fit Newtonian physics.
Because his problem is much greater: Newton is obsolete. Einsteinian mechanics explains inertia as a reference frame effect of the geometry of spacetime (because motion and thus an inertia of motion only exist relatively). And that peculiar theory has been so thoroughly proved there is no way now to make it go away. I don’t think Feser can fix this one. But that he doesn’t even know he has to illustrates the frightening scale of his science illiteracy.
It gets even worse when we consider what the Higgs boson is doing in all this. Realizing even in Newtonian mechanics slowing down is just negative acceleration, any acceleration (to speed up or slow down) causes interactions with the Higgs field, an energy exchange that basically hoovers up a fraction of any energy spent trying to move an object with rest mass to a different geodesic, thus ensuring constant velocities without energy exchange causing it. The idea that if you remove a force it would cause something to slow down is naive because slowing down is an acceleration (in the opposite direction) and thus is the very thing that costs energy to produce. That is why things move at a constant velocity without a motive force. Our terrestrial experience just forgets to “see” the invisible air molecules that push on objects slowing them down.
Indeed one thing I do these days is use Google to find out if a Christian apologist seriously believes in demons. Feser? Yep.
This is how we know Christianity is actually a conspiracy theory, and serves all the emotional and psychological functions of any other conspiracy theory (as distinct from actual conspiracies).
Thanks, Dr Carrier. The psychology of belief is something I find interesting and would like to catalogue more in future. My case is unusual as I grew up in a lax Catholic home, then became rigorously fundamentalist in college due to emotional instability and stumbling across online apologetics for the first time. I would describe it as a kind of emotional capture, where you value a certain concept (say, “Jesus is the kindest and most moral person and will make all the evil in the world go away at some point”) so much that you become emotionally dependent upon it, and the mere suggestion that it might not be true triggers severe anxiety. Everything was about protecting that belief, and eventually it became an unstable Jenga Tower of rationalizations. At my lowest moment, I distinctly remember wishing that I could live in a world where Darwin’s work had been forgotten so that I wouldn’t need to live with the pain of cognitive dissonance regarding the early parts of Genesis (yeah, that’s insane looking back, but it genuinely was how I felt at the time). I “had” to believe X, but X seemed ridiculous, and I was unwilling to revise my belief in X, because doing so was emotionally threatening. I eventually rationalized my way out of that (“it’s a metaphor but still true somehow”), but only out of sheer necessity (in that I simply could not sustain such a high-stress state of mind anymore). In keeping with your comments elsewhere about the importance of keeping around liberal Christianity (for the time being at least), one of the things that was needed for me to deconstruct was the presence of dissenting liberal voices within my tradition, which gave me a safe space to question my beliefs without triggering the thought-crippling panic mechanism installed in my brain. I needed that “permission to be uncertain” before I could even begin to think for myself.
A couple of miscellaneous points:
-It’s actually even worse than just ignoring the existence of addiction research. Feser admits that such science exists, and that it is a very good explanation of reality. He then just blithely asserts that it cannot be a “complete” description of reality and that his armchair speculation is needed as a supplement to it, even though he cannot point to any observed phenomenon that his approach explains better than medical science. So it’s not quite a matter of ignoring the existence of science as much as simply making up shit about reality and claiming that your woo is required in order to explain it. This is like saying “yes, modern medicine is great and all, but acupuncture is needed for a complete approach!”
-You mentioned once that David Bentley Hart criticized Feser for not reading his book properly, and upon investigation, I found that he had a piece of criticism that was both snappy and sums up not just Feser, but the kind of pseudointellectual believer that he is more generally. I hope you don’t mind a verbatim quote here:
In other words, it’s not so much that Feser is stupid so much as he is profoundly intellectually lazy. He has his comfortable, settled convictions, and he has absolutely zero interest in challenging them. I think this kind of settled sloth is emblematic of a certain type of Christian intellectual. Well, it could also be grift – he does have six kids to feed.
Anyway, thanks for listening to my ramblings. I’ll try to keep future posts more on topic :p
Would it be fair to say that underlying this was anxiety over the world being more out of control, with villains and corrupt elites and their voters dictating outcomes and you as a single voter helpless to do anything about it? That is, the Jesus thing removes that anxiety while facing it is a hard truth better avoided?
And were you roped into conservative Christian political views and abandoned them later, or were you always odd-one-out for resisting them, and that created an internal conflict as well? (That finding liberal Christianity at least could fix)
This sounds oddly like pro-manosphere psychologists, e.g. A Psychology of Men? A Critical Review of Robert Glover’s No More Mr. Nice Guy (not in the ideas but the method or apologetics).
I’m starting to see this as fundamental across many apologetically defended delusions (not always, but it happens a lot). I discuss its significance in How Not to Be an Idiot: Lessons from Elon Musk but I am now seeing this ties into my entire dissertation, where the three values essential to a scientifically progressing society (which Christianity was entirely against for a thousand years) are empiricism, progressivism, and curiosity (not just pursuing it but valuing it as a necessary and productive virtue).
I got that impression in my interaction with him. He was uninterested in understanding my criticisms or their backstory, e.g. uninterested in looking into how Thomism distorted Aristotle and returning to what Aristotle actually originally said undermined his entire position. He was stalwartly committed to not understanding me or Aristotle.
These two questions are best answered by a single narrative. I kind of need to include some of my own history as context, but I tried to keep it as concise as I can, though it ended up being very long anyway! I hope that’s OK – I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting this spiel clogging up your combox. I should also preface this by saying that I’m probably not a very typical human being (to the extent that anyone is!), so my experience may not be representative or generalisable. Still, I’ll try to get you what data I can.
Heh, sorry that took so long. I hope it was useful, or at least interesting. As it happens, I found another blog by someone with a pretty similar story to mine, including their own thoughts and processes from conversion to deconversion. You can find that here:
This is all very helpful. Thank you.
You’re welcome. If you don’t mind my making one more comment, I find that there’s also a kind of dual consciousness to most forms of Christianity – or maybe extreme compartmentalization would be a better way of describing it. So far I’ve been describing Fundamentalist-types, those who take it all super seriously and construct Jenga Towers of cognitive dissonance to make it all make sense. The average believer in the pew, however, takes things much more simply. There’s “Church Brain” and “Normal Brain”, if you like, where you say, do, and believe one set of things while at Mass every week/month/day/whatever, and then operate by a totally different set of rules outside of that specific context. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be “pretending” or “dishonesty”, per se, so much as a lack of integration between different mental states. You believe X while in Church, believe something contradictory while outside of Church, and never notice (or maybe don’t care) about the contradiction between those two. Christian doctrinal claims are “in there” – they are true, but only on Sunday morning inside an old building. You “don’t bring them home with you”. The idea that you would actually let them affect your life is silly, the preserve of kooks and saints from old devotional pamphlets (who by and large are just long-dead kooks with cults of personality. Look into Catholic saints and you’ll see that many of them show signs of severe mental illness).
This even extends to official theology, at least in those Churches which hold to Classical Theism (which is most of them, other than the newer Protestant sects). In these sects, there are effectively two Gods, not one. There is the God that 99% of believers believe in, which is preached from the pulpits, which is referred to in devotional materials. This God is very obviously a gussied-up Canaanite Storm Deity, possessing a body, a mind, emotions, the ability to change his mind, get angry, feel regret, who sits on a Throne in the Sky, etc. A person, in other words. Then there is the God who is officially promulgated, but who hardly anybody outside of seminaries even knows about. This God is heavily influenced by Platonism – an immutable, eternal, ontologically simple being with no parts (even conceptual parts like feelings, a will, an intellect, etc) – in other words, not a person at all. This God could not possibly care about anyone, in fact it isn’t clear that this God could ever even do anything. Apologetics will then endlessly equivocate between these two Gods for rhetorical purposes. For example, they’ll use metaphors from ordinary human life to describe God’s Love (it’s like a good shepherd, like a good dad, like a well-ordered society), then they’ll turn around and use semantic alchemy to empty the term “love” of the very ordinary meaning which was used to create this metaphor, swapping it out for a much more bloodless concept that amounts to “God desires that you continue to exist, to love is to desire the good of another, and since it is always better to exist than not, it is true in a sense that God loves you, even if he sticks you in Hell forever”. You once described this as “talking in Weird”, which it is, but it’s actually a profoundly deceptive shell game – when you want to make God sound good, you use the Motte position derived from common human experience (God loves you like a good Dad does). When confronted with the obvious problems with that (Evil, for instance), you retreat to the Bailey position (God “loves” you in the extremely thin, inhuman sense used by Scholasticism, which is compatible with all sorts of things that everyone agrees are depraved and evil). Swap back and forth as needed.
I’m reminded of the fact that most churches officially insist its adherents believe the Nicene Creed, but don’t actually make any effort to ensure they do, even while almost all Christians go on to explain the Trinity they themselves “believe” in by one or another heresy explicitly condemned by the Nicene Creed. Their church authorities no longer care, for fear that condemning or expelling them would be too expensive in lost money and power.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I can’t speak for Protestants, but in Catholic-Land, the thing that actually keeps the onerous rules on the books is the very fact that they’re NOT enforced, and so aren’t really in effect. I think they know that if they tried to clamp down, they’d only speed up their own decline. The Trad Fanatics who are still in favor of such a clampdown are either in denial about this fact or think it would be a good thing (“cleaning out the chaff to allow the REAL Christians to set the world on fire”, kind of nonsense).
If you look throughout history, I’d say the crucial watershed moment was 1968’s Humanae Vitae, most famous for being the one where the Pope went against everyone’s expectations, as well as the recommendations of his own advisors, in insisting that no, you still can’t use birth control. The general climate of the 60s, combined with the fact that the Pope ruled directly the opposite of what everyone wanted and expected, led to widespread refusal to follow the ban, including prominent dissent from over 200 theologians. To use a historical metaphor, it was for the Papacy what the Suez Crisis was for the British Empire – the irrefutable, public proof that they’d lost their power to coerce. Prior to this, they were in fact weak, but could maintain the trappings of the Middle Ages and pretend that everything was fine. They spent pretty much the entire Enlightenment trying to fight against progress tooth and claw, then when they lost their temporal power, they built their little academic fortresses and set about stalwartly ignoring science, Biblical Criticism, evolution, and modernity in general until they were finally forced to open up in the face of being made totally irrelevant. Modern Catholics like to tell you that they support science, evolution, etc, but most of them don’t realize how new of a development this is. It wasn’t until 1950’s Humani Generis that the Papacy even allowed you to speculate that evolution was true, and even then required a bunch of theological hedging around the existence of souls – plus, it treated evolution as some kind of highly dubious, doubtful theory that was supported by shoddy evidence. You’d know better than I, but I’m pretty sure that the evidence for the existence of evolution was pretty solid by 1950. Heck, go back just 40 years, to the first decade of the 20th century, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (better known by its old name, the Inquisition) was still formally insisting that it was not OK to teach even the mildest non-literal interpretation of the first few chapters of the Book of Genesis. If there’s one thing Catholics do well, its ret-conning their own history. Just look at how many people nowadays are trying to whitewash the Crusades, the Inquisitions, and the Middle Ages more generally.
Just noticed you linked to https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/39230 twice in your list of stupid shit.
One pragmatic justification given for people believing in religions is that it helps them get through the day and helps them through difficult situations, I don’t believe that myself.
At the end of the day, when bad things happens, i.e people getting sick and dying, it makes far more sense to realise that it’s because we’re biological creatures and the product of evolution, rather than there being some divine plan. It explains perfectly why people have bad things happening to them despite doing nothing to deserve it. I think it’s too easy for religious people to torment themselves over these kind of things.
I think you can also keep the bits of religion that actually can help people without any of the super-natural elements, i.e mindfulness meditation, festivals, maybe certain rituals and community building. I think it may be beneficial for people to go to religious institutions that don’t require a literal belief in God, or that don’t compel people to follow dangerous beliefs, plenty of Quaker groups are like that, Unitarians too and modern Jewish synagogues are often like that. Arguably, at that point they’re socio-cultural clubs rather than what most people would consider to be a religion.
You can of course have secular versions of all of these things, in France they established “Amicale Laïques” in the 1890s as a secular alternative to church-led ones for organising social activities, often for people who are new to the town or city and many of them are still going.
In the UK, the Labour clubs used to organise a lot of social activities for people and a lot of educational activities and it’s a shame that’s declined. I think it’s one reason why many White working class people in the UK have gone more reactionary in recent years
Indeed. Because that can be said of a lot of toxic beliefs. In fact, almost any false belief there is. But the costs exceed the gains. There are better products with less poison in them. See What’s the Harm and Folly of Christianity for more.
I guess the furthest I would go, is that if someone is in a position where they aren’t mentally ready to admit that their beliefs aren’t true, or at least many of the core ones, but they are in a position where they can at least accept that fundamentalism is wrong, or more conservative versions of their religion, that they might as well become liberals, as it could at least be a stepping stone to go further if and when they are ready.
I think a better way of putting that is that once you admit fundamentalism is false, and thus realize you’d been defending it with a broken epistemology that also needs to be ditched for something more reliable, the downstream result is often going to be a liberalization of worldview, simply because reality happens to have a liberal bias.
That is not entailed. It “could” have been otherwise (reality “could” have turned out by happenstance to have a conservative bias, epistemically speaking). But it just so happens that, instead, liberalism is what you end up with when you get rid of bad epistemologies and simply form beliefs based on a sound application of evidence and reason.
This is why conservatism needs bogus worldviews defended with bad epistemologies: reality cannot sustain conservative worldviews, so fantasy must be substituted instead.
But that’s all moot to the question of religion. Because even liberal religion is bad, as explained in the second half of What’s the Harm.
I agree that liberal religion isn’t “harmless”, I think anything that tells you to trust dogma is not a good thing.
I would say also, that religious liberalism can be used in some cases to actually defend institutions and keep their power, the Church of England is a rather liberal organisation as religious ones go and I think that if it was much more conservative, it likely would have been disestablished by now. People see it as largely a harmless organisation, and no British PM (bar people from the ultra right like Farage or Rupert Lowe) is going to appoint a total nutter to be in charge, however it does have an unfairly privilieged place in society still.
I think as I said above, the point where religious institutions are harmless (or at least no more harmful than other human cultural organisations) is when they get to the point where they’re just socio-cultural clubs. Tbf, I think Anglicanism and some Dutch churches were potentially evolving in that direction (lots of Dutch pastors in a survey said they had no literal belief in God and I think that position isn’t that rare in the C of E), though Anglicanism has started to become a bit more evangelical in England, in recent years, there’s been a bit of a backlash against some of the leaders.
In Spain too, I think the church is more concerned about keeping its influence than it is about people actually believing in God. They know Spanish society isn’t majority Christian these days and is pretty socially liberal, gay marriage has about 80% support in polls. They hire people who are pretty much open atheists in their schools to work as teachers.
Yes, that’s all true.
And though liberal Christianity has some dogma problems (and certainly political vanity as you note), that is not the main problem with it, as one of its distinguishing features is a diminishing reliance on dogma. Dogmatism is more distinctive of conservative Christianity (which seeks to “conserve” dogmas).
The main problem (as I point out in What’s the Harm) is epistemology. To maintain liberal Christianity requires clinging to a broken epistemology that will continue generating false beliefs, some of which are still going to be bad for self or society, or even toxic, even reverting people to conservativism. Because you can’t tell which false beliefs will be bad without knowing they are false, and that requires a reliable epistemology, which erodes even liberal faith.
Couldn’t agree more with you.
Having become an atheist, I can’t find meaning in my life, and I don’t understand the purpose or meaning of life. How can I make better decisions? How can I live better in general?
There is a lot to read to catch up on those things. You have to decide what it is exactly that you want to know and then go forth and learn it.
I have a Meaning of Life category of articles to start from.
As the renown existantialist Jean-paul Sartre said once, you create the meaning of your life. For example,during the World War II, a man loose his father and his elder brother in the battlefield. So He wanted to know if he should be enrolled in the army. He has choice to find advice either by a pro-war priest or an anti-war priest. By the fact,he goes to the pro-war priest, he has already his answer.
I think we all need to just go ahead in life and everything will going to place. Since the answer is in us. I know it’s not that simple, but nothing is, so.
Thank you. That’s true. But I think they might need more direction than that.
I just finished rewriting this section of my book Sense and Goodness without God for its new edition coming. There are a lot of resources to consult in the analytical tradition, not just the continental, which some people struggle to extract understanding from.
My meaning of life category will provide more directly analytical discussions. But classics include Bertrand Russell’s The Conquest of Happiness and Epicurus’ “Letter to Menoeceus.” Something more recent is Marietta McCarty, How Philosophy Can Save Your Life (2009) and Stephen O’Connor’s dissertation “Does Anything Matter.”
But what exactly would help depends on what exactly the remaining questions are that someone has, e.g. anhedonia is a different problem from despair, which are both different problems from being unsure what to do with one’s life, which is different in turn from not understanding why anything is valuable or worth doing (e.g. like the importance of mattering or accessing personal fulfillment). So my recommendations would depend on which specific problem someone is having.
Do you really view abstract objects as not inside the circle? I thought the Neo Aristotelian article and the one refuting Ed Feser’s Thomism explained abstract objects pretty well.
Indeed. Everything outside the circle is, IMO, well explained now.
The condition is not, though, “is well explained,” but “everything humanity knows is true to an effective certainty,” i.e. settled science.
You and I can agree the other things should be settled science by now, they just aren’t, as a happenstance of history—disputes still exist among real experts (and not just cranks and loons), which Christians continue to exploit because it’s all the scraps they have left.
Those disputes probably should have been resolved by now. But that they haven’t is more a function of their being incorrectly deemed outside science, and philosophy as an academic field having no standards of progress (the field refuses to call balls and instead lets arguments go on forever, which is a methodological defect of the field—which seems only to get fixed when scientists get tired of philosophy’s bullshit and devise a way to settle a matter their way, as is in progress for cognitive science and cosmological science, for example).
I’ve enjoyed this article and you have me wondering about the concept of the ground of all being. You state, “Otherwise atheists already agree there is a ground of all being, and that everything that exists does have a causal explanation without thoughts or feelings at the bottom of anything.” This ground concept comes from Paul Tillich. But i think that his concept may include thoughts and feelings. I didn’t realize that many atheists are aware of this concept. Would you be willing to explain this idea more?
I am indeed borrowing the lingo from theology. Physicists (and even atheists who don’t know physics) have always called it something else, or didn’t have a word for it, but nevertheless talked about it all the time.
It’s just a convenient phrase to connect the dots and compare worldviews with. I go into that more in The Argument to the Ontological Whatsit and Superstring Theory as Metaphysical Atheism.
But the tl;dr is that theologians invented “ground of all being” to try in desperation to make God relevant to both the everyman and modern theoretical physics. It’s just that they didn’t know any modern theoretical physics, so they didn’t know they were talking about the same thing as TOE and GUT and the Standard Model, only without “thoughts and feelings.”
Existential inertia just is physics. It doesn’t require some megamind concentrating really hard for us all the time.
I’m also wondering what you are suggesting in this paragraph about thoughts and feelings.
Is it actually thoughts and feelings at the bottom of it all?
Itseems to me that you were earlier suggesting otherwise. Am I simply misunderstanding what you mean here?
I am confused. The entire article explains my position.
So how can you be confused about it?
The paragraph you quote is explaining the two sides: Christians/theists, who are the “it has thoughts and feelings” people, and atheists/naturalists/physicalists, who are the “it doesn’t” people.
Sorry, my mistake.
Dear Dr. Carrier,
I have followed your work for a long time—your articles and videos have been instrumental in my intellectual development, and I hold your contributions to secular thought in high regard. I am writing to you because I am currently facing an existential crossroads, and I believe your perspective is the most likely to provide a coherent path forward.
After leaving behind theistic belief, I find myself grappling with a specific problem: the loss of the “external policeman.” Growing up with a religious framework, morality felt like a set of objective, externally enforced rules. With that authority removed, I am confronted with a jarring question: If there is no God to act as an ultimate judge, what truly prevents a person from acting in their own naked self-interest?
I see the world around me rushing to fill this void with what I perceive as esoteric or mystical nonsense—from New Age meditation practices to the “consciousness-first” metaphysics of thinkers like Bernardo Kastrup. While these trends are popular, they provide no logical utility for navigating reality. They do not help me solve the problem of living a meaningful life in a universe that appears indifferent to human concerns.
This brings me to my central dilemma. Logically, if the ultimate constraint of a divine lawgiver is gone, and the laws of the state can be circumvented, why should an individual choose to sacrifice their own desires for the sake of others? If life is finite and subjective, is it not the most rational path to simply live as an egoist?
Yet, I find myself in a paradox: despite my logical reservations, I possess a genuine, deep-seated desire to contribute to the well-being of others. I do not want to live a “hollow” life defined by mere selfishness. I value humanity, and I want to do good.
My question to you is this: How do we construct a robust, objective moral foundation—a “meaning” to life—that is rooted in logic, science, and rationality, rather than dogma or mysticism? How does one reconcile the cold, logical conclusion that “everything is permitted” with the very real, human imperative to live for others?
How does one build a life of purpose that is not just an arbitrary preference, but a sound, sustainable project that won’t leave me feeling lost?
I would be deeply grateful for your thoughts on this matter.
Ironically, self-interest. Because egoism is not the same thing as egotism; and selfishness is not the same thing as self-interest. Learning that is actually what moves children to the adult stage of moral development in moral psychology: we are moral because that’s the sort of person we want to be. Why we want to be that and not something else comes from the realization of how everything in the world actually works (not works in fantasy) and what in the world is actually worthwhile (not what you are taught or think is worthwhile).
That is, via Game Theory and the empirical psychology of self-respect, moral truth is the best behavior for yourself, because it ensures a greater probability of living a satisfying life and being satisfied by who you really are. Everything else is short-sighted and self-defeating, or poorly performing relative to the alternative. Part of that comes from realignment of what matters (e.g. money is worthless at the expense of satisfaction and enjoyment of life, and when available, the good company of real friends). Part of it comes from understanding risk theory (the better behavior is what improves the probability of a result, not “guarantees” a result, as no such behavior exists, that’s a fantasy). And so on.
You are close to getting this already, as the reason you don’t want to be awful is that you now know what it’s like for you and yours to be treated by awful people, and your loathing of them would transfer to yourself if you became just like them. The only way to avoid that otherwise is to lie to yourself about who you have become or what effects your behavior has on others—or even about the facts of the world, which is why awful people have to believe, for example, that immigrants are evil, because that allows them to feel good about how they see and treat them. But that belief is all a lie. And the worst thing you would ever want to find out about yourself is that you are living a lie. Indeed, you loathe people who do that, so if you discovered you were doing it, you would loathe yourself. This is why evil worldviews require broken epistemologies: the only way to avoid discovering this. As every story of escaping an evil worldview to a good one reveals (see my linklist for examples).
My two most important articles on this are The Real Basis of a Moral World (which also breadcrumbs to further readings on each point, but I recommend starting with Bergman, which at present can be grabbed here) and The Objective Value Cascade (which covers the fundamental train of thought governing it all).
I do not know why I am the way I am; it seems there are no rational explanations for it. Until the age of 16, I lived by one principle: life is short, and it has only one goal—pleasure. But everything changed in a strange moment that I still do not fully understand to this day.
My friend and I were walking on a bridge over a large river in the spring. The ice was melting, and a young girl fell through the ice in the middle of the river. I had a choice: try to save her, and most likely die, or do as my friend did—stand on the bridge and watch. Without thinking of anything, I abandoned all my previous principles and ran toward the river and the ice. Water was swirling in vortices beneath it, and the ice crunched under my feet. I thought to myself, ‘How strange. I am about to die, yet I am saving a human being. But why?’
And I saved her—even though I did not know how to swim. She did not thank me, but I was happy. I have never thought about this story since, yet I still do not understand why I did it.
Now I believe in secular humanism. I still live for comfort, but I have found values that are more rewarding: science, knowledge, and philosophy. And even the act of sacrificing oneself for the greater good. It is strange. It feels like faith—and an irrational faith at that. After all, if I sacrifice myself, who will be happy if I am no longer here?
As a 70-yr-old life long Unitarian, I was always taught that all faith based texts are symbolic and allegorical. I recently discovered this site and have read all 4 of Dr. Carrier books through his links because it is fascinating for me to learn how someone could NOT think that the Abrahamic religions are all made up. Even so, there are some wonderful ideas about how to live and treat people with kindness and decency that get overshadowed by misguided and harmful dogma.
Since Unitarian Churches tend to get people coming in from mainline Catholic and Protestant faiths going through something that seems similar to what you are dealing with, my impression is that many feel “untethered” to a sense of Community because they are used to a more structured life comprised of what one “should” or “should not” do. Many seem to have never been taught to trust their own sense of goodness and self worth. Many also lack critical thinking skills. Try making your own structure until it just becomes a natural part of who you are.
It is a false choice thinking that a life without faith in a higher being or purpose is a “hollow life rooted in logic, science, and rationality”, and as such, “arbitrary and without meaning”. Conversely, I feel that someone thinking there is some controlling higher power is living a sad, hollow life from arbitrarily being born into the faith of their parents.
You are never lost because you have yourself. Sometimes you might be hiding from yourself, but in general everyone wants a purposeful life. You can still live according to whatever creed resonates with you. It doesn’t make it less so because it is allegorical. Participate in life and the community. Do what you can and be happy to be alive. So many people are not.
Coincidentally, the Texas GOP platform until recently had a section against teaching critical thinking I public school for the explicit reason stated that it would encourage young people to question authority. I think they got enough bad press about it to drop it, but the opinion remains .
Hello,
What do you think about what Trump said recently? Speaking of the comeback of religion in America. Do you think religious spirit contribute or alienate the nation? I’m not from the US, so I ask from on other part of the world.
I no longer listen to anything Trump or his cabinet says. They lie pretty much constantly so there is never any usable information coming out of their mouth.
But apart from his lies and bullshit, there was a poor study that tried pushing that narrative recently and it was retracted when it was exposed as having been swarmed by bots. The actual statistics indicate the trend has been decline not only in Christianity in America, but conservative Christianity in particular. It’s why they resort to cheating now (gerrymandering, voter suppression, abject lying and false promisemaking to manipulate voters): they are too few to win fairly anymore.\
For the real story see the section on numbers in Justin Brierley and the Folly of Christianity and the Gallup Analysis. Though the rate of decline may have declined, that actually can’t be determined without another future data point, as it might just be a standard bump in a downward graph.